Mar 19, 2026 Historic District Council

ANY QUESTIONS FOR MS. SADLER? YEAH, I HAD A QUESTION JUST FOR CLARIFICATION ON THE STAFF REPORT UNDER THE SUMMARY OF REQUESTS AND BACKGROUND INFO.

THIS MIGHT JUST BE A TYPO, BUT IT WAS A LITTLE BIT CONFUSING.

IT SAYS THE SANBORN MAPS.

[00:10:01]

TO NOTE THAT IT'S A TWO-STORY STRUCTURE AND TODAY THE BUILDING IS A TWO-STORY BUNGALOW.

WAS THIS A TWO-STORY AT ONE POINT? I WOULD ASK THE APPLICANT TO HELP ME ANSWER THAT QUESTION.

I BELIEVE THERE IS A SECOND STORY IN THERE.

STORY AND A HALF, MAYBE? PROBABLY A STORY AND A HALF.

LIKE ONE AND A HALF.

BUT BASED ON THE SANBORN MAPS, THERE'S CLEARLY A NUMBER TWO IN ALL OF THE DRAWINGS, SO I'M NOT REALLY SURE.

YEAH, OKAY.

I HAVEN'T BEEN INSIDE THE BUILDING.

ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FOR MS. SADLER? ALL RIGHT.

WILL YOU BE THE APPLICANT, MR. PEZZETTA? COULD YOU COME UP, PLEASE? HELLO, JAMES PEZZETTA, ARCHITECT, 103 SOUTH 18TH STREET FROM DENA BEACH.

SO TO KIND OF ANSWER TAMMY'S, I THINK, AND I INCLUDED MY SANBORN RESEARCH IN WITH THE APPLICATION, I DON'T THINK THIS HOUSE WAS EVER IN ANY OF THOSE SANBORNS.

I THINK THIS WAS BUILT IN 1928.

AND IT REPLACED WHATEVER WAS THERE BEFORE.

AND WHAT WAS THERE BEFORE WAS A TWO-STORY STRUCTURE.

BUT I DON'T, THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT ONE, I THINK.

IT'S BASED ON EVERYTHING WE'VE LOOKED AT AND KIND OF GONE THROUGH, PLUS THE NEIGHBORS ARE RELATIVES OF THE PEOPLE WHO ORIGINALLY BUILT THIS HOUSE.

AND FROM THEIR MEMORY, THIS HOUSE DATES TO 1928.

AND AS WE KNOW, THE SANBORN MAPS GO TO 1926, SO EVERYTHING PRIOR TO THAT WAS A DIFFERENT HOUSE.

THIS KIND OF SEGUES INTO ONE OF MY FIRST POINTS, WAS THAT IF YOU LOOK AT THOSE MAPS, EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU SEE THIS HOUSE, IT'S DIFFERENT FROM WHEN IT WAS BEFORE.

IT HAS A DIFFERENT USE, OR IT'S BEEN RECONFIGURED.

AND IN MY MIND, WE'RE KIND OF JUST FOLLOWING ALONG WITH THE WHOLE HISTORY OF THAT LOT.

IT KIND OF JUST SUITS THE FUNCTION OF WHAT IT'S BEING USED FOR AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME IN HISTORY.

SO, YOU KNOW, WHERE IT WAS ORIGINALLY BUILT, IT PROBABLY WAS A DUPLEX.

I DON'T THINK THERE WAS EVER A MEZZANINE OR A SECOND FLOOR, BECAUSE I'VE BEEN UP IN THE ATTIC TO LOOK AT THAT CHIMNEY.

THERE'S NO ROOM.

YOU COULDN'T POSSIBLY HOUSE A PERSON UP THERE.

THERE'S NO EVIDENCE THAT THERE WAS A...

FLOOR OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

SO I DON'T THINK IT'S WAY TOO SHALLOW.

SO I THINK THAT'S WHERE WE ARE WITH WHAT WE HAVE TODAY.

WHY DON'T I WALK YOU THROUGH THE CHANGES THAT WE'RE PROPOSING, ALTHOUGH MIA KIND OF DID A REALLY GOOD JOB OF SUMMARIZING THEM.

I THINK I'M PROBABLY JUST REPEATING WHAT SHE SAID, SO I'LL DO IT QUICKLY.

WE GOT GENERAL REPAIRS.

THE PLAN IS TO RESTORE AND REPAIR THOSE HISTORIC WINDOWS AROUND THE HOUSE.

I THINK WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO SAVE ALL THE WINDOWS.

I DON'T THINK ANY OF THEM ARE SO DEGRADED THAT WE HAVE TO GET RID OF THEM.

OBVIOUSLY, ON A NEW STRUCTURE, THERE WILL BE NEW WINDOWS.

THERE ARE SOME AREAS OF SIDING THAT NEED SOME ATTENTION.

WE'LL NEED TO LOOK AT THE CHIMNEY, I THINK, MAINLY JUST TO MAKE SURE THAT THE FLASHING IS GOOD AND IT'S NOT LEAKING.

THE FRONT PORCH, AS MIA SAID, WE'RE LOOKING TO SHIFT THOSE STAIRS FROM THE CENTER TO THE SIDE TO ADDRESS WHAT IS THE FRONT DOOR, WHICH WILL ALLOW THEM TO GET MORE USE OUT OF THAT FRONT PORCH.

THEY'LL HAVE MORE USABLE SPACE INSTEAD OF PUTTING THE TRAFFIC IN THE CENTER AND USING UP TWO-THIRDS OF THE PORCH JUST FOR GETTING IN AND OUT OF THE HOUSE.

NOW YOU ONLY USE ONE BAY FOR GETTING IN AND OUT.

ALSO AT THE FRONT PORCH, WE WANT TO GET SOME MODERN UPLIFT FASTENERS ON THOSE COLUMNS.

RIGHT NOW IT LOOKS LIKE THERE'S JUST ONE NAIL PER POST HOLDING THOSE THINGS TOGETHER.

I THINK PUTTING NEW FASTENERS IN IS GOING TO INCREASE THE SAFETY AND SURVIVABILITY OF THAT.

AND THEN THE PROPOSAL IS TO WRAP THEM SO THAT WE HIDE ALL THOSE FASTENERS, WHICH IS WHAT YOU SEE IN THE DRAWINGS.

THERE IS AN EXISTING SECOND DOOR THAT YOU CAN SEE ON THE, THERE YOU GO, ON THE LEFT.

THE PROPOSAL IS TO REMOVE THAT.

WE'LL SALVAGE IT, AND WE'LL USE IT ON THE INSIDE OF THE HOUSE IN A NEW LOCATION.

WE'LL KEEP THE TRIM, THE DOOR TRIM, AND WE'RE GOING TO MOVE A WINDOW FROM THE SIDE INTO THAT POSITION.

SO FUTURE PEOPLE CAN LOOK AT IT, AND YOU CAN TELL THAT THERE WAS A DOOR THERE, AND NOW THERE'S A WINDOW THERE.

BUT WE'LL BE USING A HISTORIC WINDOW IN THAT PLACE.

[00:15:06]

YOU CAN KEEP THOSE HISTORIC NAILS.

THEY'VE WORKED FOR 98 YEARS.

SURE, WE CAN LEAVE THEM.

WE'RE GOING TO TAKE OFF THOSE EXISTING RAILINGS, WHICH I DON'T THINK THEY'RE ORIGINAL BY ANY MEANS.

AND WE'RE GOING TO PUT SOME NEW RAILINGS ON.

THEY'LL BE IN THE SAME KIND OF THEME, GENERAL THEME OF IT, BUT THEY'LL HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF A PATTERN TO THEM, JUST TO GIVE A LITTLE MORE CHARACTER TO THAT FRONT.

LEFT SIDE.

THERE'S ONE WINDOW.

THIS WINDOW IS ACTUALLY GOING TO BE THE ONE THAT WE MOVE TO THE FRONT.

THERE'S A BATHROOM GOING IN THERE.

THERE'S A SHOWER THERE.

WE'RE JUST GOING TO HAVE FIXED SHUTTERS WITH WINDOW TRIM AROUND WHERE THAT WINDOW IS NOW.

IT DOESN'T REALLY NEED TO BE IN THE BATHROOM, AND IT WOULD BE A LIABILITY TO HAVE A FULL-SIZE WINDOW IN THE SHOWER.

SO IT'S GETTING MOVED.

AT THE REAR...

WE HAVE THOSE TWO EXISTING COVERED PORCHES, AND I INCLUDED SOME PICTURES I TOOK.

YOU CAN SEE HOW THE ROOF OVER THEM IS LITERALLY A PIECE OF PLYWOOD WITH METAL ON IT, AND THE FLASHING'S NOT EVEN INSTALLED BEHIND THE SIDING.

IT'S ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE SIDING, WHICH MAKES ME THINK MAYBE THOSE CAME LATER.

ALL THE NEW...

ADDITION STUFF IS OCCURRING IN THE BACK OF THE HOUSE.

AS MIA POINTED OUT, THE INTENT IS TO HAVE THE NEW ELEMENTS BE DISTINCT FROM THE EXISTING.

I THINK YOU HAD THE SITE PLAN DOES A PRETTY GOOD JOB OF SHOWING HOW THE NEW THING, IT'S NOT FLUSH WITH THE LINE OF THE SIDE OF THE HOUSE.

IT'S INSET A LITTLE.

THAT WAY YOU CAN SEE THE CORNER OF THE EXISTING HOUSE.

IT'S JUST INSET BY.

7-8 INCHES I THINK.

JUST ENOUGH TO MAKE IT DISTINCT AND DIFFERENT AND WE'LL ENTOMB THE EXISTING SIDING.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO REMOVE THAT EXISTING SIDING, WE'RE JUST GOING TO PLACE A 2X4 WALL ABOUT AN INCH OFF OF IT.

SO IT'S STILL GOING TO BE THERE, THE EXISTING HOUSE IS FULLY INTACT.

IT WON'T HAPPEN IF THEY EVER TOOK THAT OFF IT'S FULLY...

VISIBLE AS THE EXISTING HOUSE, WHICH IS ALSO PART OF SOME OF OUR RULES AND REGS.

I THINK THAT'S BASICALLY IT.

SO, GUYS, I HAVE ANY QUESTIONS? ANY QUESTIONS FOR MR. TADADA? I HAVE A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS, BUT THANK YOU FOR SUCH A DETAILED EXPLANATION.

SO, THE PORCH COLUMNS, DO YOU THINK, AND I APPRECIATE THAT, I'M PRESUMING YOU'RE LEAVING THEM IN PLACE AND THEN WRAPPING THEM.

SO, DO YOU THINK THAT THEY ARE ORIGINAL? THE CHAMFERED EDGE LOOKS LIKE IT COULD BE.

POTENTIALLY.

I MEAN, BY THE AMOUNT OF PAINT ON THEM, THEY CERTAINLY COULD BE.

THEY APPEAR TO HAVE BEEN PAINTED MANY, MANY TIMES.

AND THEY'RE IN PRETTY GOOD CONDITION.

THEY'RE NOT, THEY DON'T SEEM TO BE DEGRADED.

AND IT'S JUST MORE, LIKE, IT'D BE NICE TO KEEP THEM THERE, EVEN IF YOU'RE GOING TO WRAP THEM INTO THE FUTURE OR WHATEVER.

YEAH, THEY HAVE CHAMFERED EDGES AND WILL JUST BE.

ENTOMBED ALSO.

THEY'LL STILL BE THERE.

WHAT'S THE MATERIAL OF THE SHUTTERS ON THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE? BECAUSE I SEE THE NEW DRAWING IS ADDING ANOTHER SHUTTER.

SO I'M JUST WONDERING.

THE NEW SHUTTERS WILL BE NEW MATERIAL.

THEY'LL BE MODERN MATERIAL.

THE EXISTING SHUTTERS ARE PROBABLY IN THE WORST CONDITION OF ALL THE MATERIALS ON THE HOUSE, I THINK.

PROBABLY BECAUSE THEY'RE JUST SO...

SMALL SCALE, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT GOING TO LAST VERY LONG.

SO I THINK WHEN WE GO IN, WE'LL JUST USE MODERN MATERIALS TO REPLACE THEM.

I THINK THERE'S A CUT SHEET IN THERE THAT CALLS OUT WHAT THOSE ARE.

ENDORA CORE.

EXCUSE ME? ENDORA CORE.

OH, OKAY.

AND THEN MY LAST QUESTION, SO WHERE YOU'RE REMOVING THE DOOR, AND I APPRECIATE THAT YOU'RE REUSING IT INSIDE.

IT'S A BEAUTIFUL DOOR.

YOU'RE GOING TO KEEP THE TRIM ALL THE WAY DOWN.

IT'S GOING TO LOOK LIKE IT'S A DOOR OPENING.

THAT YOU'VE BEEN FILLED WITH A WINDOW.

YEAH, I THINK THAT'S KIND OF A NOD TOWARDS AT ONE POINT THIS WAS A DUPLEX.

YEP.

AND THE EVIDENCE WILL BE THERE, BUT IT WILL BE SUBTLE.

ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? I'VE GOT A COUPLE.

FIRST, JIM, I WANTED TO THANK YOU AND THE OWNERS FOR ACKNOWLEDGING THOSE PREVIOUS DETAILS.

YOU KNOW, WITH THE DOOR TRIM ON THE FRONT, I MEAN, A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD HAVE JUST INFILLED COMPLETELY.

SO LEAVING THAT TRIM THERE AND

[00:20:02]

BEING ABLE TO, YOU WERE SO CREATIVE TO MOVE THAT WINDOW FROM THE SIDE AND PUT IT IN THE FRONT AND THEN INFILL THE WINDOW WITH THE FIXED SHUTTERS.

YOU'RE JUST KIND OF LUCKY THAT IT WAS THE RIGHT SIZE.

THE SIZE, I KNOW.

SO THAT REALLY JUMPED OUT AT ME RIGHT OFF THE TOP.

AND I DID NOTE THE CALL-OUT ON THE SIDE OF THE BUILDING SAYS THAT ALL THE SHUTTERS WILL BE REPLACED WITH CORRECTLY SIZED SHUTTERS, AND YOU HAVE A CALL-OUT AS TO HOW THEY'LL BE MOUNTED.

SO MY HUNCH IS THAT THEY WILL BE OPERATIONAL TECHNICALLY.

THEY'RE MOUNTED SO THEY COULD.

I DON'T KNOW NECESSARILY THAT THEY WILL BE OPERATIONAL.

I MEAN, IF YOU WANT THEM TO, WE CAN DO THAT.

OKAY, AND THEN IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE THE DRAWING FOR THE FRONT HAS BEEN RETROFITTED WITH THE CORRECT SIZE SHUTTERS YET, BUT I'M ASSUMING YOU'RE DOING IT AROUND THE WHOLE SIDE AND THE FRONT.

YEAH, I SEE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, TAMMY.

YEAH, WE'LL HAVE TO MODIFY THAT.

SO THE FRONT WILL HAVE THE CORRECT...

SIZED SHUTTERS.

OKAY, AND HUNG PROBABLY.

EXCELLENT.

YEAH, THAT'S A BIT OF HISTORY WE DON'T NEED TO MIMIC.

INCORRECTLY SIZED SHUTTERS.

YEAH, THAT'S A FOUR-LETTER WORD, SHUTTER.

INCORRECTLY SIZED SHUTTER IS A FOUR-LETTER WORD.

I HAVE TO AGREE WITH VERONICA'S QUESTION ABOUT THE FRONT COLUMNS.

SIMPLY BECAUSE, I MEAN, THE ROOF ISN'T GREAT, THAT PORCH ROOF.

ARE YOU TEARING THAT OFF AND REBUILDING IT? I SEE THAT YOU HAVE RAFTER TAILS ON IT AND IT DOESN'T HAVE IT NOW.

SO WILL THAT BE A TEAR-OFF AND A REBUILD OR JUST A MOD? SO RIGHT NOW I THINK WE ENVISIONED A MOD OF WHAT'S THERE.

WHAT'S THERE, OKAY.

THOSE COLUMNS LOOK AMAZING, AND THEY ARE A TRUE CHAMFER.

THEY ARE NOT A MECHANICAL CHAMFER BECAUSE IT'S GOT THAT CRISP, SHARP EDGE ON IT.

SO THE ONLY THING I MIGHT SUGGEST IS, LIKE ON MINE, THAT'S THAT'S WHAT WE HAD AS WELL.

AND TO ACCOMMODATE THE UPLIFT, WE WENT IN WITH A BOARD HOLE AND SIMPSON STRONG-TIED SCREWS, LIKE, YOU KNOW, ALL THE WAY INTO THAT BEAM, AND THEN I PLUGGED THOSE HOLES.

SO YOU CAN'T SEE ANY MECHANICAL FACTORS.

IT'S NOT A BUCKET, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT A BUCKET ATTACHMENT OR ANYTHING THAT'S VISIBLE OR A HURRICANE STRAP.

SO, I MEAN, I WOULD LOVE TO BE ABLE TO SEE THAT RATHER THAN HAVING A HARDY PLANKED COLUMN UP THERE.

I THINK THAT COULD REALLY ADD SO MUCH CHARACTER TO THIS HOUSE.

SO THAT IS SOMETHING WE TALKED ABOUT.

AND THERE IS THE SMALL APPETITE TO UPDATE THE LOOK OF THE HOUSE A TINY BIT.

SO THAT IS PART OF THE KIND OF EQUATION OF JUST BRINGING A LITTLE BIT OF AN UPDATE TO THE LOOK OF THE HOUSE.

AND THE COLUMNS ARE KIND OF THE FIRST THING YOUR EYES LAND ON.

THAT IS PART OF THE INTENT, IS TO GIVE IT A LITTLE BIT OF A FACELIFT WITHOUT REDOING A WHOLE BUNCH OF STUFF.

WILL YOU DO THE DECKING? WILL THE DECKING BE REDONE ON THE PORCH? I THINK SOME OF THE DECKING IS GOING TO NEED TO BE REDONE.

IT HAS ISSUES IN SOME AREAS.

AND I KNOW THE RAILING, WHEN I LOOK CLOSELY, THAT DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE ORIGINAL.

I THINK THEY'VE DONE A LOT OF SCABBING ON THE DECKING AND THE RAILING AND WHATNOT.

SO, I MEAN, THAT REALLY DOESN'T HURT MY FEELINGS TOO MUCH.

I REALLY WOULD ENCOURAGE, BECAUSE I WOULD HATE TO LOSE SO IT DOESN'T JUST LOOK LIKE A MODERN HOUSE, BECAUSE IT COULD VERY WELL, WHEN IT'S FRESHLY PAINTED, LOOK LIKE A NEW BUILD THAT'S IN THERE.

SO THAT WOULD BE MY THOUGHT THAT WE CAN DISCUSS.

AND THEN THE OTHER QUESTION I JUST HAD ON THE BACK, IT LOOKS LIKE IT'S A SLAB ON GRADE FOR THE ADDITION.

ANY DISCUSSION ON DOING A PIER? IN THE BACK, IT'S TOO CLOSE TO THE GROUND.

IT WOULD BE A ROT.

I DIDN'T REALIZE THE ELEVATION CHANGED.

I THINK THOSE WERE THE THAT WAS IT FOR YOU.

ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? YEAH, MY ONLY COMMENTS ARE GOING TO BE ABOUT THE POST, TOO, BUT I THINK THESE TWO PRETTY MUCH GOT THAT.

THANK YOU FOR WRAPPING THEM, AT THE VERY LEAST.

YOU KNOW, YOU'RE PROTECTING THEM, YOU'RE SAVING THEM, YOU'RE NOT RIPPING THEM OUT.

THAT'S AWESOME.

THE TIMBER DECKING, IS THAT FOR THE FRONT PORCH OR FOR THE BACK PORCH? THAT.

CAN I JUMP BACK TO ONE OTHER THING? JUST BECAUSE I WAS MORE FOCUSED ON THE HOUSE WHEN I WAS LOOKING AT IT AND NOT THE FRONT, THE FENCE.

WITH THE MOVE TO THE FRONT DOOR BEING THE DOOR ON THE RIGHT.

PRESUMABLY THERE'S MODIFICATIONS TO THE FRONT FENCE OR GATE, AND I JUST DON'T REMEMBER WHAT IS THAT.

IS THAT AN ORIGINAL? NO, IT'S PRETTY MUCH A NEW.

[00:25:03]

IT'S A NEW.

THEN MAYBE I'LL CHANGE TO IT.

SO, ALL RIGHT.

WE ACTUALLY TALKED TO THE GUY WHO PUT THE FENCE IN ABOUT THE POTENTIAL ATTACK.

AND HE SAID THEY WOULD COME BACK AND BE ABLE TO DO THAT.

ANYTHING ELSE? OKAY, ANY DISCUSSION BEFORE I OPEN THE PUBLIC HEARING? YEAH, I THINK TAMMY'S RIGHT ABOUT THE CHAMFER ON THE POST.

IT'S JUST, YOU KNOW, THAT'S SUCH A DEFINING ELEMENT.

IT'S HARD TO DO ON HARDY, ALBEIT IT IS HARD, BUT THERE'S A WILL, THERE'S A WAY, YOU KNOW, OR YOU CHANGE THE MATERIAL.

WELL, WE WOULDN'T BE CHAMFERING THE HEART.

RIGHT, SO YOU'RE JUST GOING TO HAVE A SQUARE COLUMN.

TERRIBLE.

AND THE THING IS, 90% OF THE PEOPLE THAT TRY TO DUPLICATE THAT JUST RUN A ROUTER ON IT.

THAT'S A TOUGH DETAIL.

AND THEN YOU HAVE ONE SIDE THAT HAS A CODE AND ONE THAT'S CRISP.

SO UNLESS SOMEBODY THEN COMES BACK AND HAND-TITTLES IT AGAIN, YOU'VE LOST THAT YET AGAIN.

SO IT'S A PRETTY BIG DEAL.

I WOULD HOPE THAT WE COULD FIGURE OUT A WAY TO KEEP...

THE EXISTING COLUMNS AND KEEP THE CHAPTER.

AND IF WE CAN'T, IS THE WRAPPING THE NEXT BEST OPTION? PRESERVING AND WRAPPING.

PRESERVING IT.

AT LEAST THE COLUMNS ARE THERE.

I MEAN, THAT'S IT.

I'M GOING TO OPEN A PUBLIC HEARING NOW.

OPEN A PUBLIC HEARING.

IF THERE'S ANYONE IN THE CHAMBERS WHO WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK ABOUT THIS CASE, PLEASE RISE AND COME DOWN.

DO YOU WANT TO SPEAK? THEY'RE JUST DISCUSSING.

OKAY, I DON'T SEE ANYBODY WHO WANTS TO JUMP UP HERE, SO I'M GOING TO CLOSE THE PUBLIC HEARING AND GO ON TO BOARD DISCUSSION AND HOPEFULLY A MOTION.

ANY DISCUSSION? ANYTHING TO SAY OTHER THAN JUST WHAT'S BEEN SAID? I GET STUCK ON THESE COLUMNS, THOUGH, BECAUSE IT WOULD BE ONE THING IF THEY WERE ROTTED, YOU KNOW, IF THEY WERE COMPLETELY DETERIORATED, AND EVEN THE BEAM, IT'S SUCH A BEAUTIFUL BEAM.

IT'S A FULL, LIKE, 5 BY 5 OR 6 BY 6 BEAM.

THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE AT.

WILL YOU GUYS BE AMENABLE TO MAYBE THINKING ABOUT IT? I DON'T KNOW THE CONDITION.

I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THE CONDITION.

I'M SORRY.

FIRST IN YOUR EYE, 18 NORTH 4TH STREET.

I DON'T KNOW THE TRUE NATURE OF THE CONDITION OF THEM.

THAT HOUSE, YOU KNOW, ONCE YOU START TO DEAL WITH THE ENDS OF THE COLUMNS, WHEN SOMEBODY STARTS TO, I DON'T KNOW, LIKE JIM SAID, THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF NAILS DRIVEN INTO THOSE THINGS.

THERE'S A LOT OF MATERIALS THERE THAT ARE OBVIOUSLY NOT ORIGINAL TO THAT HOUSE THAT WERE SORT OF PIECED TOGETHER.

I THINK THE ISSUE ON THE COLUMNS IS NOT THE LOOK AT ALL.

IT'S REALLY IF THEY WERE THOSE COLUMNS BUT THEY WERE THICKER, I THINK THAT'S...

SHELLY CAN ADDRESS THIS BETTER THAN I CAN.

I DON'T HAVE THE SAME, YOU KNOW, I DON'T REALLY PAY ATTENTION TO THEM.

SO I DON'T, IT'S A MUCH BETTER OPINION ON THE ACTUAL AESTHETICS.

BUT I DON'T KNOW, LIKE WE COULD BE FIGHTING TO KEEP THOSE COLUMNS, AND THEN THE DAY THE CONTRACTOR COMES, HE'S LIKE, WELL, THESE COLUMNS ARE NOT SALVAGEABLE.

SO I DON'T KNOW THAT ANYONE'S SPENT MUCH TIME LOOKING AT IN DEPTH OF WHAT THE SITUATION IS AS FAR AS THE, YOU KNOW, THE ACTUAL STATE OF THE COLUMNS AS FAR AS THE WOOD GOES.

BECAUSE, PARDON MY INTERRUPTION, BUT THE ACTUAL RAILINGS ON THE PORCH HAVE BEEN ROTTING FOR A LONG TIME.

SO IT WOULD BE UNLIKELY THEY'RE IN PRISTINE CONDITION.

BUT WE'LL HAVE TO SEE THAT WHEN WE GET A LITTLE BIT.

IT LOOKS LIKE THOSE RAILINGS, I MEAN, THEY'VE BEEN REPLACED AND THEY'RE IMPROPERLY SPACED OR TOO LOW.

SO THEY'RE GETTING A LOT OF SPLASHBACKS.

SO THEY PROBABLY AREN'T A TRUE HEART PINE LIKE THOSE COLUMNS.

I MEAN, THAT BEAM IS MASSIVE THAT WAS AROUND THAT PORCH.

I MEAN, YOU GUYS ARE LIKE, YOU'VE GOT A REALLY COOL DETAIL RIGHT THERE THAT YOU CAN POINT OUT TO PEOPLE.

IT'S YOUR PESETA.

JAMES, IS THAT A 103 SOUTH 18TH? SO WE HAD A LITTLE POWWOW THERE.

AND WHAT IF WE WRAPPED THEM WITH, LIKE, FIVE-QUARTER BY MATERIAL AND PUT THE CHAMFER IN? OH, YEAH.

THAT WAY IT WOULD STILL HAVE THE SAME CHAMFERED LOOK.

YEAH, JUST WRAP.

SHELLY DID A SLIGHTLY THICKER COLUMN, WHICH IS REALLY WHAT SHE WANTS, A LITTLE MORE.

A LITTLE MORE WIDTH TO THOSE COLUMNS, BUT THEN WE KEEP THE CHAMFER LOOK, AND IT COULD BE DONE OUT OF WOOD SO IT WOULD BE ABLE TO ACCEPT THAT CHAMFER NICELY.

WOULD YOU KEEP THE BEAM?

[00:30:03]

I DON'T THINK WE'D HAVE TO REPLACE THE BEAM.

MAYBE I'D PAD OUT THE FRONT SO IT I'LL HAVE TO LOOK AT THE DETAIL.

WE MAY NOT EVEN NEED TO DO ANYTHING TO IT.

I MEAN, IT MIGHT WORK PERFECTLY BECAUSE EVEN IF YOU GO A LITTLE BIT LIGHTER, TECHNICALLY THAT'S HOW IT SHOULD HOLD UP THE HEADER.

IT SHOULD BE A LITTLE BIT WIDER THAN THE HEADER AND THE BEAM ITSELF.

WELL, LIKE YOU SAID, WE CAN USE THOSE SIMPSONS CURVES, AND THAT WOULD WORK JUST WELL.

YEAH, I THINK THAT'S A SOLUTION THAT'S ACCEPTABLE.

I FEEL GOOD ABOUT THAT.

SO I THINK WE'VE DISCUSSED EVERY INCH OF THE HOUSE.

I'M SURE THERE'S MORE WE COULD TALK ABOUT.

DO I HEAR A MOTION? I'LL MOTION TO APPROVE IT.

CAN YOU? I CAN.

I MOVE TO APPROVE CASE NUMBER HGC 2026-0002 WITH THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS.

WRAP THE COLUMNS WITH A CHAMFER.

AND I MOVE THAT HGC MAKE FINDINGS AND FACTORING CONCLUSIONS OF LAW PART OF THE RECORD THAT HGC CASE, HGC 2026-0002, AS PRESENTED, IS SUBSTANTIALLY COMPLIANT WITH THE LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE, THE SECRETARY OF INTERIOR STANDARDS, AND THE HISTORIC DISTRICT DESIGN GUIDELINES TO OUR FINAL APPROVAL AT THIS TIME.

SECOND.

WE HAVE A MOTION AND A SECOND.

PLEASE CALL THE ROLL.

MEMBER SALA? YES.

MEMBER KOSAK? YES.

MEMBER BURNS? YES.

MEMBER SLACHOWSKI? YES.

VICE-REPOSITA? OH, MY FAULT.

IT'S YOUR FAULT.

I VOTED TWICE.

YOU CAN'T DO THAT, JEN.

I CAN.

OH, I THOUGHT I SAID IT'S YOUR FAULT.

YOU CAN COME BACK UP HERE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

ALL RIGHT, NOW WE ARE ON

[5.2 HDC 2026-0003 - STEVEN CARVER, 110 S. 4TH STREET Certificate of Approval (COA) to construct an 8 feet board on board stained wood fence to separate residential property from neighboring commercial property. (Quasi-Judicial)]

TO HBC 2026-0003.

MS. SADLER.

I JUST FOUND A LITTLE TYPO ON THE SLIDE.

THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN CHANGED TO 03, NOT 02, BUT THE REST OF MY NUMBERS SHOULD BE RIGHT.

OUR CASE UNDER NEW BUSINESS, HBC 2026-0003.

BEFORE WE GET INTO THIS CASE, I WANTED TO INTRODUCE A THEME THAT OUR DEPARTMENT HAS BEEN STRUGGLING WITH DOWNTOWN CONCERNING PROPERTIES ALONG THE BOUNDARY BETWEEN THE C3 ZONING DISTRICT AND THE RESIDENTIAL ZONING DISTRICT, SO SPECIFICALLY R2 IN DOWNTOWN.

C3 PROPERTIES ARE PERMITTED TO HAVE AN 8-FOOT TALL FENCE, WHILE RESIDENTIAL PROPERTIES ARE PERMITTED TO HAVE A 6-FOOT TALL FENCE.

THIS CREATES A DISCREPANCY, A VISUAL DISCREPANCY, ALONG THE BOUNDARIES AND REDUCES THE INTENT OF THE SEPARATION OF USES.

TO ADDRESS THIS, STAFF ADDED AN ITEM TO THE DESIGN GUIDELINES UPDATE THAT YOU GUYS WILL BE REVIEWING LATER.

IT IS ITEM NINE UNDER FENCE AND WALLS.

IT READS, WHEN A RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY ABUTS A COMMERCIALLY ZONED PROPERTY, AN EIGHT-FOOT-TALL FENCE MAY BE USED ALONG THAT PROPERTY LINE ONLY.

THIS CASE HIGHLIGHTS THIS ISSUE, AND WE'LL GIVE THE BOARD TO DISCUSS THIS AMENDMENT TO THE GUIDELINES LATER ON IN THE AGENDA.

BUT I WILL GET INTO HCC 202603.

WHICH IS AN APPLICATION FOR A CERTIFICATE OF APPROVAL TO CONSTRUCT AN 8-FOOT-TALL PRIVACY WOODEN FENCE AT 110 SOUTH 4TH STREET.

AS YOU CAN SEE ON THE ZONING MAP, THAT LOT TO THE R2 ZONE SINGLE-FAMILY HOME IS 110 SOUTH 4TH STREET.

THIS IS MR. CARVER'S HOME, THE APPLICANT.

AND THEN ALONG ASH STREET, THERE ARE TWO C3 ZONE PROPERTIES.

ONE ON THE CORNER OF SOUTH 4TH AND ASH IS A PARKING LOT, AND THEN TO THE RIGHT AT LOT 16.

IT'S A COMMERCIAL USE.

IT'S A CIGAR LOUNGE AND BAR.

SO I PULLED TABLE 50110A, MAXIMUM HEIGHT OF FENCES AND WALLS, FROM OUR LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE.

AND YOU CAN SEE THAT IN MOST OF THE RESIDENTIAL ZONING DISTRICTS IN OLD TOWN AND IN MU1, SIX-FOOT-TALL FENCES ARE PERMITTED IN THE SIDE AND THE REAR YARD.

AND EIGHT-FOOT-TALL FENCES ARE PERMITTED IN C1, C2, C3, MU8, PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS, AND WATERFRONT.

LET'S SEE.

AND IN SOME CASES, THE RECREATIONAL AND CONSERVATION LAND AND INDUSTRIAL CAN USE 12-FOOT-TALL FENCES.

SINCE THERE IS A DIFFERENCE IN FENCE HEIGHT ALONG THIS BOUNDARY, SO LET'S SAY THE C3 PROPERTY COULD PUT UP AN 8-FOOT-TALL FENCE, BUT THE PERSON NEXT DOOR COULD ONLY PUT UP A 6-FOOT-TALL FENCE, WE'VE BEEN RUNNING INTO ISSUES WHERE IT'S CAUSING KIND OF A VISUAL BLIGHT AS PEOPLE ON THE RESIDENTIAL SIDE ARE

[00:35:01]

LOOKING AT TWO FEET EXTRA.

FENCE ON THE C3 SIDE.

SO THAT KIND OF INSPIRED US TO DISCUSS THIS DURING THE DESIGN GUIDELINES UPDATE AND IS FURTHER HIGHLIGHTED BY THIS CASE.

ON THE PICTURES ON THIS SLIDE, THEY ARE CURRENTLY A FOUR FOOT TALL PICKET FENCE AT THE PROPERTY OF 110 SOUTH 4TH STREET.

AND THEN ON THE RIGHT, I HAVE A PICTURE OF THE PATIO OUTSIDE ALCOHOL SERVICE AND MUSICAL PERFORMANCES THAT ARE OFTEN WEEKLY OR TWICE A WEEK.

CAUSING MUSIC AND LIGHT TRESPASS ONTO THE RESIDENTIALLY ZONED PROPERTY.

AND YOU CAN SEE THE CORNER OF MR. CARVER'S HOUSE FROM THE CIGAR PARLOR OUTDOOR PATIO.

THIS WAS CHANGED FROM A LAWYER'S OFFICE TO A CIGAR PARLOR IN 2023, SO THAT COMMERCIAL USE HAS BEEN MORE INTENSE THAN PREVIOUSLY.

THE SITE PLAN FOR THIS APPLICATION SHOWS THAT THE FENCE WOULD START YOU HALFWAY, SO IT WOULDN'T BE ON THE PARKING LOT SIDE TOWARDS THE FRONT OF THE STREET.

IT WOULD ONLY BE TOWARDS THE REAR PROPERTY, EXCLUSIVELY ADDRESSING THAT BOUNDARY WITH THE CIGAR PARLOR.

THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF THE PROPOSED FENCE STYLE FOR THIS.

AND STAFF DOES RECOMMEND APPROVAL OF 2026-0003.

AND WE WELCOME DISCUSSION ABOUT THE GUIDELINES AMENDMENT, ITEM 9, UNDER THE WALLS.

ANY QUESTIONS FOR MS. SADLER? YES, MA'AM.

SO LOOKING AT THE IMAGE, SO THE HIGHLIGHTED AREA WOULD BE THE 8-FOOT FENCE, AND THEN THE WHITE PICKET WOULD STILL BE GOING OUT THROUGH THE PARKING LOT? YES, SIR.

AND THEN IN THE OTHER ONE, THE ONE IS IT BASICALLY WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WHERE THE CHAIN-LINK FENCE IS? NO, SO I TOOK THAT CHAIN-LINK FENCE PHOTO FROM THE PARKING LOT.

SO TO THE RIGHT IS MR. CARVER'S HOUSE.

AND THEN RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME IS THE PATIO AT THE CIGAR PARLOR.

AND THEN YOU CAN KIND OF SEE, OH, MY MOUSE WON'T, OH, THERE'S MY MOUSE.

RIGHT HERE IS PART OF THAT WHITE PICKET FENCE.

AND THEN RIGHT IN FRONT OF HERE IS A STAGE THAT HAS BEEN BUILT FOR MUSICAL PERFORMANCES.

I THINK THEY EVEN HAVE A TV SCREEN OUT THERE.

SO THE WHITE PICKET FENCE THERE WOULD JUST REMAIN, AND THEN WHERE THE TREES ARE IN THE BACK, THAT'S WHERE THE EIGHT-FOOT FENCE WOULD JUMP UP.

CORRECT.

AND YOU CAN KIND OF SEE IT A LITTLE BIT HERE.

SO ALONG THIS PROPERTY LINE SHARED WITH THE PARKING LOT, THAT WOULD BE THE WHITE PICKET FENCE STILL.

AND THEN ALONG HERE IS THE EIGHT-FOOT TALL FENCE.

I BELIEVE MR. CARVER SAID THEIR BEDROOM IS ON THIS SIDE.

SO THAT'S WHERE THEY'RE HAVING THE MOST ISSUES WITH NOISE.

ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FOR MS. SADLER? YEAH.

WHEN WAS THAT SENTENCE ADDED INTO THE HISTORIC DISTRICT GUIDELINES ABOUT THE THE, YOU KNOW, WHICH WAY, IN TERMS OF FENCE HEIGHT, THE, THE, UM.

OH, THIS ONE? YEAH.

I MAY HAVE MISSED IT DURING THE REVIEW OTHER THAN MOST RECENTLY, THE PAGE 45, NUMBER THIS WAS THE, THIS IS THE PROPOSED UPDATE.

SO IT'S NOT ADOPTED YET.

IT'S JUST A POINT OF DISCUSSION THAT WE WANTED TO HAVE WITH THE BOARD.

THIS IS THE ONLY THING BESIDES SOMETHING ABOUT LEAVING UNPAINTED MASONRY UNPAINTED THAT WE REALLY KIND OF ADDED.

TO THE DESIGN GUIDELINES AND WE CAN TALK ABOUT THAT DURING THE AGENDA BUT THIS IS NOT ADOPTED YET WE JUST WANTED MARGARET AND I HAVE BEEN ENCOUNTERING THIS UM HALF A DOZEN TIMES IN THE PAST COUPLE MONTHS SO WE WANTED TO TRY TO ADDRESS IT AND AT LEAST START THAT CONVERSATION WITH THE BOARD ANY OTHER QUESTIONS I THINK UM NOTWITHSTANDING IF WE ARE GOING TO ADDRESS THIS AND PERHAPS MAKE SOME CHANGES UM CURRENTLY THE GUIDELINES SAY THAT A SOLID BOARD FENCE CAN BE USED IN BACKYARDS ONLY.

SO WE MIGHT HAVE TO ADDRESS THAT AS WELL IF WE'RE RUNNING INTO THESE PERPENDICULAR PROBLEMS. RIGHT, AND WE SHOULD BECAUSE MARGARET AND I HAVE EVEN HAD DISCUSSIONS ON HOW THAT SENTENCE IS SUPPOSED TO READ.

DOES THAT MEAN THAT YOU CAN ONLY HAVE A SOLID WOOD FENCE IN THE BACK OR YOU MAY ONLY USE A SOLID WOOD FENCE IN THE BACK? IT'S QUITE CONFUSING.

OKAY, SO I HAVE TO SEE IF WE ZONE IN.

IF THE OWNER OF THE CIGAR BAR WERE COMING HERE WANTING TO PUT AN 8-FOOT BEHIND HIM, WOULD HE BE ALLOWED TO DO THAT? THAT WOULD BE A STAFF APPROVAL AND WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE.

SO WHAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR IS SOMETHING THAT IS JUST INCHES AWAY FROM WHAT'S WITHIN THE CURRENT.

THAT'S CORRECT.

CAN I JUMP IN? I HAVE SOME THOUGHTS ON THIS.

AND I'VE STRUGGLED WITH THIS AS I'VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT IT.

AND I DO UNDERSTAND A LITTLE

[00:40:01]

BIT OF THE BACKGROUND OF WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE.

BUT I THINK TO PRESERVE THE HISTORIC DISTRICT, TO ALLOW MY PERSONAL OPINION IS I DON'T KNOW THAT WE SHOULD HAVE EIGHT-FOOT FENCES ANYWHERE.

BUT TO ALLOW AN EIGHT-FOOT FENCE, ESPECIALLY FOR THE SMALL SECTION, DOESN'T REALLY MAKE SENSE TO ME.

AND I THINK WE SHOULD BE ERRING ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION AND THAT THE FENCES SHOULD BE ON THE MORE RESTRICTIVE SIDE, WHICH WOULD MEAN A MAXIMUM OF SIX FEET IN THIS CONDITION BECAUSE IT'S THE RESIDENTIAL, THE R2 ZONE WOULD ONLY PERMIT A SIX-FOOT FENCE.

AND THEN PERHAPS THERE NEEDS TO BE SOMETHING IN THE CODE THAT SAYS...

THAT EVEN IF A C3 FROM ITS 8 FOOT, IF YOU'RE BORDERING ON AN R2 IN THIS EXAMPLE, THAT YOU STILL HAVE TO COMPLY WITH RESIDENTIAL, WHICH WOULD MEAN 6 FEET, I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE VERY ODD TO HAVE THIS ONE SECTION OF 8 FOOT FENCE THERE.

ALTHOUGH I DO UNDERSTAND IN THIS SCENARIO THAT THERE'S A BIGGER ISSUE HERE, AND I THINK THAT SOMEHOW THAT BIGGER ISSUE NEEDS TO BE DEALT WITH IN TERMS OF SOUND AND NOISE, AND I DON'T THINK...

AN EIGHT-FOOT FENCE FOR WHATEVER THAT LENGTH IS IS GOING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM THAT THIS OWNER HAS, AND I'M VERY CONSCIOUS, AND I HAVE A PROPERTY MYSELF WHERE I'VE GOT A COMMERCIAL PROPERTY, BUT I'VE GOT A NOISIER COMMERCIAL PROPERTY NEXT TO ME, AND I DO UNDERSTAND AND APPRECIATE WHAT THE SITUATION IS.

ALL RIGHT, AND I WILL POINT OUT THAT IN THE C3 ZONING DISTRICT WHERE EIGHT-FOOT TALL FENCES ARE ALLOWED, SOME OF THOSE PROPERTIES ARE SINGLE-FAMILY RESIDENCES.

AND THEY'RE PERMITTED TO HAVE 8-FOOT-TALL FENCES, SUCH AS 30 SOUTH 3RD OVER HERE.

THEY HAVE AN 8-FOOT-TALL FENCE THAT GOES ALL AROUND, AND THAT'S JUST A MATTER OF THEIR ZONING.

SO I CAME AT THIS FROM A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT ANGLES.

WE HAVE THE CASE AT A GRANULAR LEVEL THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT, BUT THEN WE ALSO HAVE TO PULL BACK TO THE BROADER.

PICTURE.

AND WHAT I TRIED TO DO IS LOOK ON THE GIS MAP TO SEE, LIKE, WHERE, WHAT PROPERTIES ARE WE TALKING ABOUT? I MEAN, WE COULD POTENTIALLY HAVE A LOT OF FENCES THAT JUST POP UP AT EIGHT FEET.

SO I DID SOME, LIKE, BROADER RESEARCH, AND OVERALL STATEWIDE, AND THIS IS IN ACTUALLY MOST JURISDICTIONS, RESIDENTIAL IS LIMITED TO SIX FEET.

NOW, WHEN THEY'RE...

ARE INCOMPATIBLE USES, LIKE A BAR NEXT TO A HOUSE OR A HIGHWAY OR SOMETHING.

YOU CAN POP UP TO AN EIGHT FEET, BUT THEN OFTENTIMES, AND WE DISCUSSED THIS, YOU MIGHT HAVE A SIX-FOOT SOLID, BUT THEN THERE'S SOME SORT OF OPACITY ABOVE IT, LIKE THE NEXT TWO FEET CAN HAVE A LATTICE OR SOMETHING DECORATIVE LIKE THE PROPERTY HERE.

SO IT TAKES AWAY A LITTLE BIT OF THAT KIND OF...

YOU KNOW, USED CAR SHOP, INDUSTRIAL WALL FEEL, AND MAYBE IT'S A SHADOW BOX INSTEAD OF JUST A SOLID DOG-EARED, DOG-CORNERED FENCE, WHICH CAN REALLY START ERODING SOME OF THE FEEL OF THE DISTRICT.

SO THAT WOULD BE MY THOUGHT, BECAUSE FROM SOUND, LIGHTING, IF THEY'VE GOT TALL LIGHTS, 6'8", THAT'S NOT GOING TO AFFECT THE LIGHTS.

I UNDERSTAND THE SOUND ISSUE, BUT REALLY, IF YOU HAVE MORE OF A...

SHADOW BOX, THAT'S GOING TO ATTENUATE MORE OF THE SOUND WAVES.

AND EVEN IF YOU HAVE LATTICE ON THE TOP, THAT'S GOING TO HELP A LOT WITH PRIVACY AND SAFETY AND SECURITY AND A LITTLE BIT OF THE SOUND ISSUE AS WELL.

THE OTHER THING IS, ONCE YOU GET INTO AN EIGHT-FOOT FENCE, YOU HAVE A WHOLE DIFFERENT SET OF PERMITTING AND GUIDELINES.

AND EVEN NASSAU COUNTY, THEY ISSUED A MEMORANDUM TO PROPERTY OWNERS, FENCE CONTRACTORS, AND PERMITTING STAFF.

BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO MEET WIND LOAD REQUIREMENTS, YOU HAVE TO GO FURTHER DOWN INTO THE GROUND.

SO, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE GETTING INTO A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TYPE OF OFFENSE.

THAT'S PERMITTING'S ASPECT OF IT.

SO WHAT I WOULD LIKE US TO CONSIDER IS HOW OFTEN MIGHT THIS BE AN ISSUE AND DO WE WANT TO HAVE ANY SORT OF GUARDRAILS ON IT AS FAR AS THE DESIGN OF IT SO THEY CAN GO UP TO 60 IN THIS CASE AND THEN THERE'S A...

SOMETHING MORE DECORATIVE ON THE TOP.

I AGREE.

WE NEED THE GUARDRAILS.

I MEAN, THIS COULD POTENTIALLY BE A BIGGER ISSUE.

AGAIN, I'M SENSITIVE TO WHAT IS HAPPENING THERE AND RESPECT THE ISSUE ON THE RESIDENTIAL SIDE.

BUT I THINK IT'S MORE OF AN ISSUE OF DEALING WITH WHAT'S HAPPENING ON THE CIGAR BAR SIDE OF THIS SITUATION.

SO WOULD YOU, WOULD YOU, I LIKE YOUR IDEA OF THAT DIFFERENTIATION.

I MEAN, IT'S KIND OF LIKE THE MEDIA PEONY ON OLD

[00:45:01]

TOWN WHERE WE JUST SHOW THAT SOMETHING CHANGES.

BUT I WOULD THEN THINK YOU'D ALMOST HAVE TO BE, I MEAN, CURRENTLY THE CIGAR BAR OWNER COULD JUST PUT UP AN 8-FOOT FENCE AND WE'RE GOOD.

SO YOU ALMOST WOULD HAVE TO MAKE THAT CHANGE EFFECTIVE TO BOTH SIDES.

ON THE LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE SIDE.

WHAT I DON'T WANT TO SEE IS A BUNCH OF 8-FOOT FENCES AND A BUNCH OF 6-FOOT FENCES, JUST NOW IT EVEN LOOKS UGLIER.

YEAH, AND THE KEY IS WHEN IT'S THE TWO NON-TRIVIAL USES OF THE PROPERTIES, WHETHER THEY'RE COMMERCIAL OR INDUSTRIAL.

AGREED.

MS. PEARSON JUST MENTIONED TO ME THAT THERE'S AN OPTION THE BOARD WOULD WANT TO CONSIDER THAT IF THERE'S AN APPLICATION FOR AN 8-FOOT FENCE, IT WOULD COME TO THE BOARD FOR REVIEW.

AND THAT WAY IT COULD ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO FOLLOW THE SIX-FOOT GUIDELINES OR THEIR DESIGN WOULD HAVE TO BE COMPATIBLE WITH THE TORONTO AREA.

WE'RE ALL DESIGNING, AND I WOULD LIKE TO ASK THE APPLICANT TO COME FORWARD.

MR. CASCONE IS HERE IN PLACE OF MR. CARVER.

MY NAME IS JOHN CASCONE.

I LIVE AT 116 SOUTH 4TH STREET.

I'M NEIGHBORS TO STEVE AND SANDRA CARVER.

I'VE PROVIDED MS. PHILKOFF A LETTER THAT MR. CARVER SIGNED, I BELIEVE YESTERDAY, ASKING ME TO BE ALLOWED TO SPEAK ON HIS BEHALF BECAUSE OF SOME FAMILIAL HEALTH ISSUES THAT ARE GOING ON RIGHT NOW.

FIRST, I WANT TO CORRECT ONE THING.

IT'S NOT A COUPLE NIGHTS A WEEK.

IT'S THREE NIGHTS A WEEK NORMALLY.

THIS WEEK, BECAUSE ST.

PATRICK'S DAY WAS TUESDAY.

IT WILL BE FOUR NIGHTS.

MR. CARVER.

CAME HOME FROM HUMPHREYS MEMORIAL HOSPITAL TO HIS PARENTS' RESIDENCE AT THE NORTHEAST CORNER OF 4TH AND ASH, WHERE THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT NOW SITS.

HE'S A NATIVE.

HE NOW LIVES LESS THAN 200 FEET WHERE HE DID AS AN INFANT.

THERE WAS NEVER ANY KIND OF PROPERTY LIKE THIS THERE.

THERE ARE MANY CONTENTIONS GOING ON.

THIS PRINCE IS AWARE OF SOME OF THEM, THAT SOME OF THE APPLICATION PROCESS THAT WAS GONE THROUGH FOR THIS CIGAR PARLOR.

I FIND IT INTERESTING THAT ONE OF THE THINGS REFERS TO IT AS A BAR BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE'VE SAID SINCE DAY ONE.

IT'S NOT A CIGAR PARLOR, IT'S A BAR.

AND THEY ALLOWED THIS BAR TO COME IN WITHOUT GIVING US ANY KIND OF PUBLIC HEARING ON IT.

THE ISSUE BECOMES, WHAT DO THEY DO IMMEDIATELY? AND I UNDERSTAND ALL THE THEORETICAL ISSUES OF THE HISTORIC DISTRICT.

I'VE BEEN A RESIDENT FOR 36 YEARS.

MY WIFE SERVED ON THIS BOARD FOR PROBABLY 15 TO 20 YEARS.

I UNDERSTAND THAT.

THE PROBLEM IS YOU'VE GOT PERIMETERS OF THE HISTORIC DISTRICT THAT ABUT TO COMMERCIAL PROPERTY THAT MAY ALSO BE IN THE COMMERCIAL DISTRICT.

IT'S ONLY GOING TO HAPPEN ON THOSE PERIMETERS BECAUSE WITHIN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO FIND JUST A LITTLE BAR OR A RESTAURANT PLACED IN THE MIDDLE OF HOMES.

IT'S ALWAYS ON THE FRINGE.

SO THIS EIGHT-FOOT FENCE REFERS TO THAT FRINGE, NOT TO ANYTHING ELSE.

I SENT A LETTER TO, OR AN EMAIL TO CODE ENFORCEMENT THIS WEEK.

NEIGHBORS BEHIND ME ON 5TH STREET PUT UP A FENCE, AS MS. KOZAK IS TALKING ABOUT, THAT'S SIX FOOT.

LOOKS LIKE THE STANDARD SIX FOOT SLATS.

AND THEN THEY HAVE ADDED A TWO FOOT LATTICE SITUATION, AS SHE'S REFERRING TO.

I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS PERMITTED.

I SURE NEVER GOT ANY KIND OF OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE MY INPUT.

ON THAT IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD.

SO IT WAS EITHER DONE ILLEGALLY OR IT WAS DONE WITHOUT NOTICE TO THE SURROUNDING PROPERTY OWNERS.

THIS HAS BEEN NOTICED.

THERE HAVE BEEN NUMEROUS ISSUES OVER NOISE AT THIS PLACE.

THERE IS A NOISE ORDINANCE IN PLACE BECAUSE OF WHAT WENT ON RIGHT ACROSS THE STREET WITH THE BOATHOUSE AND I THINK IT WAS MISS ACOSTA TO THE OTHER SIDE.

THAT NOISE ORDINANCE, THE POLICE OFFICERS IN THIS CITY REFUSE TO ENFORCE.

THERE ARE TWO PORTIONS TO IT.

THEY IGNORE THE SECOND PORTION AND SAY THEY WILL NOT ENFORCE IT.

AND I'VE BEEN TOLD THAT MANY TIMES TO MY FACE.

THEY WILL EVEN GO SO FAR AS TO NOT ENFORCE THE TIME LIMITS BECAUSE THEY'VE TOLD ME IT DOESN'T MATTER.

THEY'RE GOING TO MEASURE THE SOUND LEVEL.

MR. CARVER HAS IMMEDIATE PROBLEMS. HE SLEEPS AT NIGHT WITH NOISE-CANCELING APPARATUS, WHICH IS A NICE WAY OF SAYING YOU EAR MUFFS THAT WE USE FOR SHOOTING GUNS.

THEY'RE NOISE CANCELING.

I GO TO SLEEP AT NIGHT.

WITH AIRPODS ON NOISE CANCELLATION, AND I'M A PROPERTY AWAY, WE HAVE NO WINDOWS THAT FACE THE PROPERTY WHERE THE CIGAR PARLOR IS.

WE STILL SUFFER FROM THAT NOISE.

MY WIFE WORKS FIVE DAYS ONE

[00:50:01]

WEEK, THREE DAYS THE NEXT.

ON HER FIVE-DAY WEEK, SHE HAS TO LISTEN TO MUSIC ON THURSDAY NIGHT TO GO TO WORK ON FRIDAY.

SHE CAN'T GO TO BED BEFORE 10 O'CLOCK AT NIGHT, AND SHE'S UP AT 4.50.

TO GO TO WORK.

THIS FENCE IN ITS THEORETICAL CAPACITY WILL CUT OFF NOISE.

THE STAGE IS NOT VERY ELEVATED.

THE PICTURE THAT SHOWS THE SPOT, THAT PICTURE RIGHT THERE TO THE RIGHT, THE STAGE ISN'T LIKE IT'S UP HERE AT THIS LEVEL.

IT'S MAYBE A FOOT OFF THE GROUND.

SO AN EIGHT-FOOT FENCE IS GOING TO PREVENT THAT SOUND BOUNCING BACK.

AND YES, THERE IS A TV OUT THERE.

YES, THERE ARE SPEAKERS OUT THERE.

YEAH, AND THEY PLAY MUSIC CONSISTENTLY EVERY DAY, WHETHER THERE'S ANYBODY IN THE BACK OR NOT.

THEY HAVE MUSIC ON THOSE SPEAKERS.

DOESN'T MATTER THAT IT AFFECTS THE NEIGHBORS.

WE HAVE PROBLEMS THAT ONLY A SOLID WALL IS GOING TO STOP.

NOT LATTICE, NOT A SHADOW BOX FENCE.

I'VE BUILT MORE SHADOW BOX FENCES THAN MOST PEOPLE IN THIS TOWN.

I KNOW WHAT THEY ARE.

I'VE GOT THEM NOW.

IT'S A PROBLEM THAT EXISTS BECAUSE THE CITY HASN'T DONE WHAT IT WAS SUPPOSED TO DO.

WE ARE FACING A PROBLEM.

WE NEED IT CORRECTED.

THE ONLY AVENUE THEY HAVE IS THIS EIGHT-FOOT FENCE.

IT'S THE ONLY THING THAT WILL CUT NOISE IMMEDIATELY.

AND AS MR. CARVER TOLD ME IN HIS NOTES, EVEN IF IT DOESN'T CUT ALL THE NOISE, IT WILL AT LEAST ALLOW HIM TO USE HIS BACKYARD WITHOUT BEING A ZOO ANIMAL ON DISPLAY FOR THEM.

THE OTHER THING IS, THEY HAVE GONE SO FAR AS TO PUT THEIR STORM WINDOWS ON THE BEDROOM WINDOW, AND THEIR BEDROOM IS ON THE NORTHEAST CORNER OF THEIR HOUSE, WHICH ABUTS THE PROPERTY OF THE CIGAR PARLOR.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY UNTENABLE FOR THEM TO LIVE IN THAT HOME WITH THAT MUSIC GOING ON.

THE OTHER THING HE COMPLAINS ABOUT, BECAUSE LIKE MOST NATIVE FLORIDIANS, WHEN THE WEATHER GETS A LITTLE NICE, THE WINDOWS ARE OPEN.

HE CAN'T DO THAT BECAUSE NOT ONLY BECAUSE OF THE NOISE, BUT BECAUSE OF THE CIGAR SMOKE.

NO ALLOWANCES WERE MADE FOR THAT.

WE HAVE TROUBLE, AND IT'S GOING TO CONTINUE TO BE TROUBLE UNTIL SOMETHING IS DONE.

I UNDERSTAND ALL THE THEORETICAL ASPECTS OF THE FENCING IN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT.

FOR 36 YEARS, MY WIFE AND I HAVE DONE EVERYTHING BY Y'ALL'S RULES, DOWN TO ACTUALLY PICKING THE COLORS THAT WE USE FOR TRIM.

AND THIS IS A REAL PROBLEM THAT MR. SULKOWSKI COULD RUN INTO WHERE HIS OFFICE IS ON BEACH STREET BECAUSE HE'S SO CLOSE TO 8.

AND THE HOUSE NEXT TO HIM, I'M SURE, IS A COMMERCIAL ZONE PLACE.

THERE ARE MANY PLACES LIKE THAT IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD, NO QUESTION ABOUT IT, BUT IT'S GOING TO BE ON THE PERIMETER.

IT'S NOT INSIDE.

AND THIS FENCE IS ONLY GOING TO BE VISIBLE FROM THREE PLACES, THE CIGAR PARLOR, THE PARKING LOT, AND THE CARVER'S PROPERTY.

IT EXISTS NOW AS A PROBLEM THAT HAS TO BE ADDRESSED, AND Y'ALL ARE OUR LAST RESORT.

AND THAT IS WHAT COACH CARVER WANTS.

BROUGHT TO THIS BOARD.

HE NEEDS THIS.

HE'S TALKED TO THE CITY SEVERAL TIMES.

HE WENT TO CLIFF GAINES OF GAINES FENCING, AND THIS IS THE IDEA THEY CAME UP WITH AND WENT TO THE CITY WITH.

AND THE CITY OBVIOUSLY HAS DONE A LOT OF WORK ON THIS.

HE WAS EVEN WILLING TO GO TO THE EXPENSE OF VINYL FENCING IF THEY WANTED IT SO IT WOULD LOOK DIFFERENT.

THEY SAID THE SOLID WOOD WOULD BE EVEN BETTER, AND HE WAS HAPPY WITH THAT.

ANYTHING THAT CAN BE DONE NEEDS TO BE DONE, AND IT NEEDS TO BE DONE TONIGHT.

ARE THERE ANY QUESTIONS FOR MR. CASCONE AND MS. KOSAKIS FIRST? JOHN, THE ISSUES HERE ARE SO MUCH BIGGER THAN THE FENCE.

I GET THAT.

I UNDERSTAND THAT.

WHAT I WOULD REALLY NOT WANT TO SEE IS FOR THE CARVERS TO HAVE TO GO THROUGH THIS EXPENSE, AND THEN IT'S...

STILL NOT WORK AND THEY STILL HAVE THIS DREADFUL SITUATION.

SO OVER HERE AT ACOSTA'S, IF YOU REMEMBER, THERE'S SOUND ATTENUATION.

THERE'S ALL KINDS OF THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN PUT UP TO HELP THEM WITH THE NOISE FROM THE BOATHOUSE.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE RELATIONSHIP IS WITH THE CIGAR PEOPLE AND THE OWNERS HERE.

HAVE THEY TRIED TO WORK TOGETHER TO GET THE CIGAR PEOPLE TO...

MR. CARVER HAS BEEN TO THEM

[00:55:01]

NUMEROUS TIMES.

I REFUSE TO EVEN SPEAK TO THE MAN BECAUSE OF THE WAY HE'S TREATED COACH CARVER.

AND I'M GOING TO TELL YOU SOMETHING.

HE'S A FEW YEARS OLDER THAN ME, BUT HE IS A MAN I LOOK UP TO.

HE SERVED HIS COUNTRY IN THIS COMMUNITY, AND HE'S LIVED HERE ALL HIS LIFE, OTHER THAN WHEN HE WAS AWAY IN THE SERVICE.

HE HAS NEVER ONCE GOTTEN ANY KIND OF COOPERATION FROM THE OWNERS OF THE CIGAR PARK.

THEY COULD PUT UP NOISE ATTENUATION.

THEY KNOW IT'S A PROBLEM.

YOU KNOW WHAT THEIR ANSWER IS? TOUGH LUCK.

WE'LL TURN IT UP WHEN THE COPS AREN'T AROUND.

AND THAT'S WHAT THEY DO.

AND WHEN THE COPS PULL UP WITH THEIR NOISE METER, THE MUSIC GOES DOWN.

AND AS SOON AS THEY PULL AWAY, THE MUSIC GOES UP.

THERE HAVE BEEN EFFORTS MADE BY COACH CARVER, BY MYSELF AND MY WIFE, AND I'LL TELL YOU ALL STRAIGHT UP, I COULD SLEEP THROUGH A TRAIN RUNNING THROUGH MY BEDROOM.

IT WOULD NOT BOTHER ME.

WHAT I CAN'T SLEEP THROUGH IS, DID YOU HEAR THAT, HONEY? DID YOU HEAR THAT? BECAUSE I CAN'T SLEEP THROUGH HER.

AND THEY'RE AGGRAVATING HER, WHICH AGGRAVATES ME.

IT'S BEYOND ANYTHING THAT CAN BE HANDLED BY GOOD NEIGHBORS BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT GOOD NEIGHBORS.

THEY HAVE NOT RESPECTED ANYTHING ABOUT THE NEIGHBORHOOD OR THE HISTORIC DISTRICT, MIND YOU.

ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FOR MR. CASCA? MAYBE JUST MORE OF A STATEMENT.

MY CONCERN, AND I THINK SIMILAR TO WHAT TAMMY'S SAYING, IS I DON'T THINK THE FENCE IS GOING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

AND THAT'S MY CONCERN, THAT YOU HAVE THAT, OR THEY HAVE THAT.

THAT EXPENSE, AND IT'S NOT GOING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM, AND IT DOES APPEAR THERE'S A BIGGER ISSUE THAT THE CITY NEEDS TO ADDRESS.

AND I HEAR, AND I'VE HEARD WHAT YOU SAID.

SO I JUST, IT JUST, IT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE IT SOLVES THE PROBLEM.

I MEAN, PERHAPS ON A ONE-OFF SCENARIO, BUT ARE WE SETTING A PRECEDENT WHERE IF AN 8-FOOT FENCE IS OKAY AND IT'S GOING TO LOOK REALLY OUT OF PLACE? THAT BEAUTIFUL LITTLE HOUSE WITH THAT FENCE AND ALL THAT, THAT'S THERE NOW BECAUSE WE'RE DEALING WITH AN ISSUE WITH A COMMERCIAL, WITH A BUSINESS THAT'S NOT, PERHAPS NOT COMPLIANT.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT, I DON'T KNOW IF THEY ARE OR THEY'RE NOT.

MS. BURNS, AT GREAT RISK OF OFFENDING YOU, AN EIGHT-FOOT FENCE ABUTTING THE C3 SECTION WHERE IT WOULD BE PERMITTED BY STAFF APPROVAL TODAY IS MUCH ADO ABOUT WHAT YOUR THOUGHTS ARE ON WHETHER OR NOT THAT WOULD BE PERMITTED.

IT'S NOT REAL WORLD SOLUTIONS TO CARVER'S PROBLEM OR THE REAL WORLD SOLUTION IS TRY WHATEVER YOU CAN SINCE THE PURVEYOR OF THAT VOICE ISN'T TRYING ANYTHING.

THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE ABOUT.

THEY'RE WILLING TO SPEND THE MONEY TO MAKE THAT FENCE DO WHAT IT CAN DO.

IF IT DOESN'T WORK, HE'S OUT OF $200, $1,000, WHATEVER IT IS.

BUT HE'S BETTER OFF FOR HAVING TRIED BECAUSE THERE ARE NO OTHER SOLUTIONS THAT HE KNOWS.

HE'S TRIED EVERYTHING.

IT IS AT THE POINT WHERE HE HAS RECEIVED NOTICE FROM LAWYERS REPRESENTING THE CIGAR PARLOR OUT OF JACKSONVILLE THAT THEY'RE GOING TO SUE HIM FOR FALSELY REPORTING NOISE VIOLATIONS, EVEN THOUGH HIS NOISE VIOLATIONS COMPLY WITH THE CITY CODE.

THAT'S HOW BAD IT IS.

AND THAT FEW HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS, WHATEVER IT IS, IS THEIRS TO SPEND.

IT SOLVES THE PROBLEM, AND IT ABUTS AN AREA WHERE IT'S IMMEDIATELY PERMISSIBLE.

SO THE IDEA THAT THIS IS GOING TO CAUSE A FUTURE PROBLEM FOR SOMEBODY ELSE, I DON'T BUY THAT.

I THINK IT'S WRONG.

I THINK THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS THESE PEOPLE HAVE AN IMMEDIATE PROBLEM, AND THEY NEED AN IMMEDIATE ANSWER.

THEY HAVE SOUGHT EVERYTHING THROUGH THE CITY THAT THEY COULD TO GET THIS HANDLED.

HE AND I HAVE BOTH BEEN OVER HERE TOO MANY TIMES.

WE CAN CALL THE POLICE.

OKAY, I'M GOING TO ASK ONE OF THE QUESTIONS THAT WAS ASKED EARLIER THAT I THINK MIGHT SHED SOME ASSISTANCE IN THE WAY PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT THIS WAS HOW OFTEN DO WE THINK THIS SITUATION OCCURS? NOW, YOU ALL HAVE NOTICED A PATTERN OR A THEME YOU SAID.

IS THAT A LOT OF PROPERTY OR IS IT JUST ON THE FRINGES AS MR. CASCONE SAID? I WOULD SAY IT'S JUST ON THE FRINGES BECAUSE IF THE PROPERTY IS ALREADY WITHIN THE C3 ZONING DISTRICT, THEY ARE PERMITTED TO HAVE AN 8-FOOT TALL FENCE.

SO IT WOULD ONLY BE ON THAT BOUNDARIES BETWEEN R2 AND C3.

AND THEN BESIDES THIS CASE, I THINK THERE'S BEEN TWO OTHERS WHERE THERE'S A DISCREPANCY IN THE FENCE HEIGHT BETWEEN TWO PROPERTIES.

THE ARGUMENT I FOUND THAT IT'S COMPELLING, TO ME ANYWAY, WAS THE DESCRIPTION OF WHEN YOU HAVE, FOR EXAMPLE, RESIDENCE NEXT TO AN INCOMPATIBLE USE, SUCH AS A BAR, AND POTENTIALLY IF WE APPLIED THAT KIND OF QUALIFIER

[01:00:01]

TO ANY NEW LANGUAGE, THAT WOULD NEGATE YOUR WORRY OF RESIDENTS' RESIDENCE.

ONE HAPPENS TO BE C3, THE OTHER ONE HAPPENS TO BE RESIDENTIAL ZONING.

THEY WOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO HAVE THE 8-FOOT FENCE BECAUSE THEY'RE COMPATIBLE USES.

BUT IN THIS CASE, WHERE WE HAVE AN INCOMPATIBLE USE NEXT TO A RESIDENTIAL USE, THAT ALONG THAT ADJOINED LINE THAT PERHAPS AN EIGHT-FOOT FENCE IS ACCEPTABLE.

AND WHY ISN'T THIS JUST ADDRESSED AS A VARIANCE AND RUN THROUGH THE SYSTEM AND LET IT HAPPEN? THAT WAS GOING TO BE MY QUESTION.

PROCEDURALLY, HOW DO WE HAVE TO HANDLE THIS? BECAUSE HE LIVES IN THE HBC.

PROCEDURALLY, I THINK IT WOULD BE A VARIANCE BECAUSE YOU'RE VARYING FROM THE HEIGHT ALLOWED IN THE RESIDENTIAL SECTION.

SO THAT, AND THEN THAT WOULD HAVE LIMITED IT TO THIS.

SPECIFIC CASE, BUT ALSO TO THE ONE BOARD MEMBER'S SUGGESTION, IF YOU WERE TO GO IN THAT DIRECTION, SUGGESTED LANGUAGE AS FAR AS COMPATIBLE VERSUS INCOMPATIBLE, MAYBE SUGGESTED LANGUAGE WOULD BE JUST COMMERCIAL RESIDENTIAL, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE THAT WAY WE'RE NOT MAKING, YOU KNOW, COMPATIBLE VERSUS INCOMPATIBLE, WHO DEFINES THAT? BUT IT WOULD STILL FALL INTO A VARIANCE SCENARIO WHERE...

THE WAY THE CODE IS NOW, I THINK IT'S A VARIANCE.

IN THIS RESIDENTIAL DISTRICT, IN THIS AREA, IS THIS FENCE ALLOWED TO BE SIX FEET HIGH? I MEAN EIGHT FEET HIGH.

SINCE WE WERE LOOKING AT AMENDING THE GUIDELINES, AND THIS IS KIND OF A REOCCURRING THEME THAT WE'VE SEEN, WE JUST HAD NOT TO PUSH IT THROUGH AS A VARIANCE.

THERE WAS ONE OTHER KIND OF REASON THAT I HAD WITH IT.

PART OF THE REASON WHY WE HAVE THE HGC IS TO ALLOW VARIATIONS FROM THE GUIDELINES.

THAT'S KIND OF THE EXPLANATION THERE.

WELL, I THINK THAT WE HAVE TWO THINGS GOING ON HERE TONIGHT THAT WE WOULD NORMALLY NOT HAVE IF IT WERE PURELY A VARIANCE COMING THROUGH, I BELIEVE.

WHAT WE HAVE IS A SITUATION WHERE LATER IN THE MEETING WE'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO DISCUSS THE GUIDELINE SUGGESTED AMENDMENT THAT MAKES THIS.

MUCH EASIER AND MAYBE WE CAN, THROUGH ANY MOTION THAT WE WENT THROUGH TONIGHT ON THIS CASE, WE COULD POSSIBLY CREATE THE ACTUAL LANGUAGE THAT WOULD GO INTO THE GUIDELINES IN THIS SITUATION, WHICH MR. CRUZETTA SUGGESTED.

DOES THAT MAKE SENSE TO EVERYBODY? I MEAN, THIS IS A SITUATION THAT...

YOU KNOW, WE LOVE, LOVE, LOVE HAVING ENTERTAINMENT DOWNTOWN, AND WE LOVE, LOVE, LOVE HAVING A WHOLE BUNCH OF ACTIVITY AND STUFF, BUT WE'RE PUTTING THE BURDEN, I BELIEVE, ON THE RESIDENTS WITH THIS KIND OF A SITUATION.

AND THIS IS A PARTICULARLY HARD ONE BECAUSE OF THE ISSUES GOING ON AT HOME RIGHT NOW WITH THIS FAMILY.

SO A POTENTIAL SOLUTION, MADAM CHAIR, COULD BE TO JUST...

POSTPONE THIS UNTIL AFTER SIX POINTS.

LIKE, JUST MOVE IT ON THE AGENDA SO THAT YOU COULD VOTE ON, AND THEN IT'S GOING TO BE LEGAL, AND YOU'LL HAVE YOUR DISCUSSION.

I MEAN, ALL YOU WOULD HAVE TO DO WITH THE CONSENT OF THE REPRESENTATIVE HERE IS JUST AMEND YOUR AGENDA TO HEAR THE REST OF YOUR CASES, DO YOUR GUIDELINES, GET THAT ADOPTED, AND THEN...

THE GUIDELINES WOULD HAVE TO GO TO THE CITY COMMISSION.

OH, THAT'S RIGHT.

THEY HAVE TO GO TO THE COMMISSION.

THANK YOU, MS. SADLER.

I FORGOT ABOUT THAT.

OKAY, SO...

HOW LONG DOES THAT TAKE? I'M JUST CURIOUS.

I MEAN, WE TALKED FOR WEEKS.

WHAT I DON'T WANT TO DO IS DELAY WHAT COULD JUST BE A SIMPLE VARIANCE VOTED ON.

AND, AGAIN, I KNOW WE ALL WORRY ABOUT IT WASN'T BROUGHT TO US AS A VARIANCE.

NO, IT WASN'T.

SO WE COULDN'T CHANGE IT AS A VARIANCE.

AND I HEAR YOUR VOICES OF, WELL, THEY DON'T REALIZE THE MONEY TO GET IT INTO.

BUT, AGAIN, OUR ROLE IS NOT TO DECIDE IF SOMEONE HAS FINANCES OR NOT TO DO IT.

OUR ROLE IS TO...

SHARE OUR THOUGHTS, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, AS THE GENTLEMAN SAID, THEY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE GETTING INTO.

IT MAY SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

I WORK IN CLINICAL RESEARCH.

THERE ARE TIMES THE MEDICINE JUST DIDN'T WORK, BUT PEOPLE STILL WANT TO TRY IT.

SO I THINK THE VARIANCE IDEA WOULD WORK OR NOT, AND THEN THAT'S WHERE I'M NOT SURE HOW THIS WORKS.

WELL, THAT WOULD STILL POSTPONE IT.

IT WOULDN'T GIVE THEM THEIR IMMEDIATE PLUS.

THERE'S A PRETTY HEFTY FEE FOR YOU WHAT IS HDC THERE? $1,000.

$1,000.

I MEAN, THAT'S ANOTHER THING.

SO, I MEAN, I'M INTERESTED TONIGHT IF WE CAN APPROVE THIS ONE THING.

I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE WE DO IT PROPERLY, PROCEDURALLY, AND THAT GOES.

HERE AND YOU TELL US HOW WE NEED TO ADDRESS THIS.

IS IT A BAR? THAT'S NOT EVEN THE ISSUE THOUGH.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE ISSUE.

[01:05:01]

I THINK IT'S BETWEEN C3 AND RESIDENTIAL.

AND YEAH, WHAT IS ALLOWED IN A RESIDENTIAL DISTRICT HERE.

BUT IT IS A PARTICULAR TYPE OF C3 BUSINESS.

BECAUSE OF THE BUSINESS.

DOES CAUSE OUTDOOR NOISE, OUTDOOR ACTIVITY.

I MEAN, IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THE CIGAR SMOKE GOES OVER THERE TOO.

I'M A CIGAR SMOKER, SO IT DOESN'T BOTHER ME, BUT THEY AREN'T.

WELL, AND TO THE MEMBERS' QUESTION, I THINK THAT WHETHER IT'S CATEGORIZED AS A BAR OR NOT, I THINK IT IS DEFINITELY COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT EVEN THE OWNER OF THAT BUSINESS WOULD ADMIT TO IS THERE'S A BAND OUT THERE.

THERE'S THERE'S TABLES AND ACTIVITY AND CIGAR OUT THERE, SO WHETHER IT'S A BAR OR A CIGAR BAR OR WHATEVER IT IS, THE ACTIVITY IS OUTSIDE IN THE REAR OF THE BUILDING, AND THAT'S THE ACTIVITY THAT'S BEING CONCERNED ABOUT.

I BELIEVE THAT WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THIS FROM A PRACTICAL PERSPECTIVE AS WELL AS OUR NORMAL PERSPECTIVE, WHICH IS DESIGN AND CONCEPTUAL AND PROTECTING THE CHARACTER OF THE HISTORIC DISTRICT.

IN MY MIND, WHAT WE'VE HEARD THE STAFF SAY IS THAT THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER CASES SIMILAR TO THIS COME BEFORE THEM.

AND IF, IN FACT, IT'S A COMMERCIAL BUSINESS COMING BEFORE THEM ASKING FOR AN EIGHT-FOOT FENCE, DONE DEAL.

SO WE'RE TALKING INCHES AWAY FROM BEING DONE DEAL.

AND THIS IS A PARTICULAR SITUATION THAT THEY'VE SEEN HAPPEN.

THEY'RE TRYING TO ADDRESS IT FOR NOT JUST THIS CASE, BUT FOR THE FUTURE.

SO IF WE CAN DETERMINE HOW WE WOULD PROCEED WITH THIS CASE, MAYBE IT'S A WAY OF GETTING THE GUIDELINE AMENDMENT CHANGED.

DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I SAID.

WELL, NO, I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT.

I DON'T KNOW THAT IT MAKES SENSE TO ME.

I'M SORRY.

I JUST, I THINK.

I WOULD LIKE TO UNDERSTAND EVERY SITUATION WHERE WE'RE POTENTIALLY GOING TO HAVE THIS SCENARIO.

AND AGAIN, I UNDERSTAND THE SITUATION THERE, BUT IS THE CIGAR BAR IN COMPLIANCE WITH WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE DOING? AND IS THAT A PERMITTED USE IN EVERYTHING THAT'S HAPPENING THERE? WHICH IS NOT PART OF WHAT WE SHOULD BE DISCUSSING THERE, BUT I DON'T KNOW THAT THE FENCE SOLVES THE PROBLEM.

AND SO MY CONCERN, I DON'T NECESSARILY TAKE EXCEPTION.

TO APPROVING THIS SECTION OF THIS FENCE TONIGHT, AND IT'S NOT THAT VISIBLE FROM THE STREET, BUT I THINK POTENTIALLY THE PRECEDENT WE SET MOVING FORWARD IS AN ISSUE.

AND SO IF WE CAN DO IT ON THIS ONE-OFF CASE OR SCENARIO, THEN MAYBE IT'S OKAY.

ON THE FENCE? OH, SORRY.

YES, BUT NOT ON A LONG-TERM BASIS.

AND I TOTALLY TAKE EXCEPTION TO THIS NUMBER NINE ON PAGE 45.

THAT SAYS THAT WE CAN PUT AN 8-FOOT FENCE UP.

I MEAN, I COULD PUT AN 8-FOOT FENCE AROUND MY ENTIRE PROPERTY IF I WANTED TO, BECAUSE I'M C3 ZONED.

I DON'T THINK THAT I SHOULD.

AND THAT CONCERNS ME, THAT WE'D BE SETTING SOME PRECEDENT FOR THE FUTURE.

ALTHOUGH I REALIZE THAT THERE'S A SIGNIFICANT ISSUE HERE, AND I'D LIKE TO BE ABLE TO HELP THIS HOMEOWNER SOLVE THIS PROBLEM.

SO I THINK WE REALLY NEED TO SEPARATE THESE TWO ISSUES.

BUT WE'LL GET INTO THE BOARD THING AND WHAT WE DECIDE LATER.

RIGHT NOW, WE HAVE A CASE BEFORE US.

AND THERE'S EXTENUATING CIRCUMSTANCES.

IF WE WANT TO MOVE THIS FORWARD, WHAT DO WE NEED TO DO AS A ONE-OFF SITUATION? I MEAN, CAN WE, TERESA, CAN WE JUST SIMPLY SAY DUE TO THESE EXTENUATING CIRCUMSTANCES, THE BOARD APPROVES THIS EVEN THOUGH BLAH, I MEAN, WHAT DO WE DO? IN ORDER TO LIMIT IT TO THIS SITUATION, IT SHOULD BE APPROVED AS A VARIANCE.

I MEAN, THAT IS HOW YOU LIMIT IT TO THIS SPECIFIC SITUATION.

SO I'M TRYING TO SEE IF WE CAN DO THAT TONIGHT.

I THINK THE FIRST THING YOU'D HAVE TO DO IS VOTE TO WAIVE THE APPLICATION FEE, BUT WE DON'T HAVE A STAFF ANALYSIS ON A VARIANCE.

I'M LOOKING AT THE HISTORIC DISTRICT.

MS. SADLER, IF YOU WERE TO RECEIVE A VARIANCE IN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT, YOU WOULD GO UNDER 10.0202 TO LOOK AT THE CRITERIA THAT THEY HAVE TO, AND IT'S THE SAME AS ALL OF THEM, EVEN THE DOA.

YES, YES.

DO YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE LOOKING AT THOSE SIX CRITERIA? I MEAN, YOU HAVE ANALYZED THIS CASE AND A LOT OF WHAT I'VE HEARD THIS EVENING, SPECIAL CONDITIONS, SPECIAL PRIVILEGES,

[01:10:01]

LITERAL INTERPRETATION, MINIMUM VARIANCE, YOU KNOW, THE EIGHT FEET IS MINIMUM, GENERAL HARMONY, PUBLIC INTEREST, THOSE ARE THE SIX CRITERIA.

I MEAN, WOULD YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE ADVISING THIS BOARD ON THOSE CRITERIA? YES, I CAN GO THROUGH THEM.

SO THAT WE COULD HEAR THAT AND I KNOW WELL, AS WE DO THAT, THERE IS A $1,000 FEE.

I KNOW THAT FEE CAN BE WAIVED.

I'VE NOT HAD IT WAIVED FOR THE HDC AT THIS LEVEL.

AS MR. AKIMOV, THE DEPUTY CITY MANAGER, I MEAN, I THINK THIS BOARD COULD WAIVE IT.

THEY'RE THE ONES THAT HEAR THESE CASES.

I DON'T THINK THE COMMISSION WOULD HAVE TO WAIVE THAT.

BUT WE COULD ALWAYS ADDRESS THAT.

IF THE APPLICANT IS WILLING TO MOVE FORWARD, WE COULD ADDRESS THE APPLICATION FEE AFTER THIS HEARING.

AND THEN IF MS. SADLER CAN IDENTIFY THE SIX CRITERIA AND THE APPLICANT IS WILLING TO MOVE FORWARD IN THAT BASIS, WE COULD JUST THEN APPROVE IT AS A VARIANCE.

YOU'D BE LIMITED TO THIS PROPERTY.

AND THEN YOU CAN ALSO GO INTO YOUR DISCUSSION LATER TO GO TO THE COMMISSION.

THIS IS A GREAT CASE FOR YOUR LATER DISCUSSION TO SEND INFORMATION TO THE COMMISSION.

BUT DOES THE BOARD FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH THAT? MY QUESTION FOR YOU IS THIS WASN'T NOTICED AS A VARIANCE.

THAT'S TRUE.

WILL THAT COME BACK? AND BE A POTENTIAL HURDLE, KNOWING THE SITUATION WITH THIS OTHER OWNER.

RIGHT, WE WOULD HAVE HAD A DIFFERENT NOTICE REQUIREMENT FOR A VARIANCE.

IT JUST WOULD HAVE BEEN NOTICED.

I MEAN, THIS WAS NOTICED AS ONE.

I MEAN, IT'S A VARIANCE IN THE SENSE THAT YOU CAN'T OTHERWISE HAVE A FENCE THAT'S OVER SIX FEET, CORRECT, IN THE ZONING DISTRICT.

I GUESS THERE IS A DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE GUIDELINES AND THE LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE.

SO THE BOARD HAS JURISDICTION OVER THE GUIDELINES TO THEIR GUIDELINES, BUT THE LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE IS THE CODE.

I THOUGHT WE DID HAVE THIS DISCUSSION AT ONE POINT.

ACTUALLY, I MET WITH PLANNING STAFF YESTERDAY, AND WE DID TALK ABOUT IT.

AND WE WENT OVER IT AT LENGTH.

WE SPENT PROBABLY 30 MINUTES TALKING ABOUT THIS, AND I GUESS I WAS THINKING THAT IT WAS A GOOD IDEA.

WHAT'S COMING THROUGH IS A VARIANCE.

I KNOW WHEN WE, ANYWAY, I KNOW WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT.

SO THE SIX FEET THAT IS BEING APPLIED HERE, IS THAT IN THE GUIDELINES OR IS THAT IN THE LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE? THAT'S THE LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE.

I HAVE A THOUGHT, CREATIVELY.

WHAT IF WE APPROVE A SIX FOOT, WHICH IS IN SYNC WITH EVERYTHING, AND GAINES CAN PUT UP EIGHT FOOT? INTERMEDIARY POSTS AND THEN ONCE WE CHANGE OUR GUIDELINES THEY CAN COME BACK AND PUT IN THE TOP TWO FEET OF INFILL.

MR. CASPER? I WILL TELL YOU THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS IF YOU'LL GO BACK TO THE PICTURE OF WHAT THE FENCE IS GOING TO LOOK LIKE YOU CAN'T ADD TWO FEET LIKE THAT.

YOU'RE GOING TO BE BACK TO YOUR LATTICE TYPE OF SITUATION.

BUT IF THEY KNOW THE SITUATION MAYBE THEY CAN BE CREATIVE.

YOU KNOW, IT MIGHT NOT BE THAT EXACT FENCE.

THAT WAS THE FENCE THAT THE CITY STAFF TOLD THEM THAT THEY SHOULD LOOK AT DOING, AND THAT'S WHY THE APPLICATION WAS MADE.

THAT'S AN EIGHT-FOOT FENCE.

THERE'S A NINE-FOOT FENCE BEHIND ME THAT WAS NEVER APPROVED, AND IT'S IN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT.

OKAY? THIS IS A REAL-WORLD PROBLEM IN A REAL-WORLD TIME FRAME FOR PEOPLE THAT ARE FACING REAL-WORLD, LITERAL LIFE-AND-DEATH ISSUES.

AND IT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED.

AND THIS IS AN EIGHT-FOOT FENCE.

GOING ON A PIECE OF PROPERTY THAT IF IT WAS TWO INCHES TO THE NORTH, Y'ALL WOULD NOT EVEN BE TALKING ABOUT IT.

WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT CHANGING THE RULES FOR THE ENTIRE HDC.

THERE IS NO ISSUE ABOUT THIS PROPERTY THAT IS GOING TO CARRY OVER TO SOMEBODY THAT'S NEXT TO A BIKE SHOP OR TO A SMALL CAFE.

IT'S NOT DOING OUTDOOR ENTERTAINMENT.

YOU KNOW, WHEN I MOVED HERE, THERE WERE NO OUTDOOR ARENAS.

THERE WAS NO...

GREEN TURTLE, THERE WAS NO PATIO, THERE WAS NO CIGAR BAR, THERE WAS NO BOATHOUSE.

THOSE ARE ALL THINGS THAT THIS CITY HAS ALLOWED TO HAPPEN THAT DIRECTLY IMPACTS PEOPLE THAT HAVE BOUGHT AND INVESTED IN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT.

I THINK WE'RE JUST TRYING, WE AS A BOARD, TRYING TO FIND A WAY TO HELP.

TO IMPROVE IT.

WHERE WE'RE ACTUALLY ALLOWED TO MAKE THE DECISION.

MADAM CHAIRWOMAN, MAY I ASK STAFF ANOTHER QUESTION? SURE.

IF WE NOTICE THIS FOR THE NEXT MEETING, JUST GET THE NOTICE UP.

COULD YOU HAVE IT ON THE NEXT MEETING OF THE HCC? AS A VARIANCE, COULD WE STILL, I MEAN, WE STILL HAVE THE TIME,

[01:15:02]

I THINK, TO NOTICE IT.

YES, BUT IF I COULD ALSO GO THROUGH THE CRITERIA.

RIGHT, WE ARE CONCERNED THAT WE DIDN'T NOTICE THIS AS A VARIANCE, AND SO THAT WOULD BE A DIFFERENT NOTICE REQUIREMENT THAN WHAT WE NOTICED FOR TONIGHT.

SO THAT WOULD DELAY IT 30 DAYS AND AT LEAST ALLOW IT TO COME BACK PROPERLY AND NOT BE A DENIAL.

I UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE, BUT I ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT THE CIGAR PARLOR HAD GONE THROUGH AN EXPANSION OF THEIR USES AND PUT A PAVER DECK AND A STAGE AND ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT AND THINGS THAT WERE NOT APPROVED BY THIS BOARD.

SO THAT'S WHY I BELIEVE IT IS AN EXTENUATING CIRCUMSTANCE.

AND THE FEE FOR THE VARIANCE DID NOT MAKE SENSE TO INCUR THAT ONTO THE RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY OWNER WHEN THE COMMERCIAL WAS NOT FOLLOWING THE RULES.

SO WE HAVE A WHOLE BUNCH OF STUFF.

THAT WE'RE DEALING WITH.

I MEAN, THEY'RE A SEPARATE ISSUE, AND THAT'S CODE ENFORCEMENT THAT NEEDS TO BE DEALT WITH.

THAT'S SEPARATE FROM THIS.

WELL, ALL I'M TRYING TO AVOID HERE, IT SOUNDS LIKE THEY ARE NOT THE NICEST PEOPLE, AND THEY DON'T WANT TO FOLLOW THE RULES.

THE MOMENT WE APPROVE A NON-NOTICE VARIANCE, GUESS WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO? YEAH.

IT'S GOING TO PROTRACT.

IT'S GOING TO GO ON.

THEY'RE GOING TO SUE.

THEY'RE GOING TO SELL.

MS. PRINCE, IS THERE ANY WAY IN YOUR...

MEMORY BANK, KEEP WISDOM THAT YOU CAN THINK OF FOR US TO WORD THIS, GRANT THE APPLICATION, AND KEEP THE CITY OUT OF TROUBLE.

THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO LOOK FOR.

LET'S FIX IT AND LET THEM PUT UP WHAT THEY WANT.

WE'RE TRYING TO THINK THROUGH THE OPTIONS.

I MEAN, IF WE APPROVED IT TONIGHT, CONTINGENT UPON IT BEING NOTICED AS A VARIANCE, AND THEN YOU CANNOT CONSTRUCT IT FOR...

YOU KNOW, ANOTHER 45 DAYS OR SOMETHING.

THAT DOESN'T MEET THE NEED.

FRANKLY, LOOK, ANY DELAY IS USELESS TO THE CARVERS.

THIS IS LITERALLY LIFE OR DEATH.

I UNDERSTAND, MR. TESCO.

LOOK, HE WAS TOLD TO MAKE THIS APPLICATION.

I AGREE WITH YOU 100%.

HE COMPLIED WITH WHAT THE CITY SUGGESTED.

THE CITY DID THE PICTURES.

HE'S HERE ASKING FOR THAT.

THAT'S ALL WE WANT.

JUST SAY YES, YOU CAN BUILD THE FENCE, IT'S DONE, AND WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO AMONGST OTHER PROPERTIES, AND WHETHER CODE ENFORCEMENT IS GOING TO DO THEIR JOB AT ALL, THAT'S NEITHER HERE NOR THERE TO THE CARVERS.

THEY NEED IMMEDIATE ANSWERS.

BUT, YOU KNOW, TO BE SPECIFIC TO A PROPERTY, THAT'S WHAT A VARIANCE IS, IS SPECIFIC TO A PROPERTY.

SO I'M TRYING TO THINK OF HOW WE COULD DO IT WITHOUT IT BEING A VARIANCE, BECAUSE WE ARE VARYING FROM THE LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE.

THAT'S RIGHT.

I KNOW IN THE PAST...

OH, NO.

SORRY, I DIDN'T REALIZE YOU WERE THERE.

MARGARET PEARSON, PLANNING MANAGER.

IN THE PAST WHERE WE'VE HAD SITUATIONS WHERE A FENCE IS CATEGORIZED AS ANOTHER ITEM OTHER THAN A FENCE, IT COULD BE WE'VE HAD THEM THAT LOOKS LIKE A FENCE BUT IT'S IN THE YARD.

THAT'S NOT A FENCE.

AND WE LET THAT BE LANDSCAPING.

FEATURE.

IN THIS CASE, ONE SUGGESTION, BUT I WILL LOOK TO YOU FOR LEGAL ADVICE.

IT COULD BE CONSIDERED A SOUND BARRIER AND NOT A FENCE.

AND MAYBE PUT IT IN FRONT OF THE OTHER FENCE OR SOMETHING.

SO THAT'S A GREAT SOLUTION.

SO WE COULD APPROVE THIS.

SO INSTEAD OF IT BEING A FENCE THAT REPLACES.

PART OF THE OTHER FENCE, YOU WOULD JUST PUT IT IN FRONT AS A SOUND BARRIER.

THE PLAN HAS ALWAYS BEEN TO LEAVE THE WHITE PICKET FENCE IN PLACE AND BUILD THIS FENCE.

OKAY, AND BUILD IT ON THE OTHER SIDE.

BUILD IT ON THE CARVER'S SIDE.

INSIDE THE EXISTING FENCE.

AS A SOUND BARRIER RATHER THAN A FENCE.

AND WE HAVE LIKE A STRUCTURE.

CORRECT.

SO, MIA, YOU NEED TO GET A TACO FOR MARGARET.

AND SO INSTEAD, AND IF IT'S ALWAYS JUST GOING TO BE, IT'S NOT GOING TO REPLACE THE FENCE, THEN REALLY, WE DON'T EVEN HAVE TO CALL IT A FENCE.

IT'S NOT A FENCE.

IT'S A SOUND BARRIER.

GOT IT.

PERFECT.

DO WE HAVE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE SOUND BARRIER? YES.

I NEED A MOTION.

I MOVE TO APPROVE THE SOUND BARRIER.

I MOVE TO APPROVE WITHOUT CONDITIONS TO APPROVE THE SOUND BARRIER.

I MOVE THAT THE HGC MAKE THE FOLLOWING FINDINGS OF FACT AND CONCLUSIONS OF LAW PART OF THE RECORD.

THAT CASE 2026-0003 AS PRESENTED IS SUBSTANTIALLY COMPLIANT WITH THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN, THE LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE, THE SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR STANDARDS.

AND THE HISTORIC DISTRICT GUIDELINES TO WARRANT FINAL APPROVAL AT

[01:20:01]

THIS TIME.

I HEAR A SECOND.

I'LL SECOND.

I HAVE A MOTION AND A SECOND.

PLEASE CALL THE ROLL VERY QUICKLY.

MEMBER SALA? YES.

MEMBER KOSAK? YES.

MEMBER BURNS? YES.

MEMBER SLAKOWSKI? YES.

VICE REPRESENTATIVE? YES.

AND CHAIR VOLKOFF? YES.

PLEASE SHARE OUR CONCERNS WITH MR. CARVER.

THANK YOU ALL VERY MUCH.

THANK YOU, MR. CASCONE.

MARGARET, YOU COULD HAVE THOUGHT OF THAT AN HOUR AGO.

WHERE WERE YOU SITTING? AT LEAST SHE THOUGHT OF IT.

SHE THOUGHT OF IT, YEAH.

WE'RE STALLING SO SHE HAD TIME

[5.3 HDC 2026-0005 - COTNER ARCHITECTS, LLC, AGENT FOR WILLIAM AND LESLIE HERBERT, 707 GARDEN STREET FINAL Certificate of Approval (COA) for the construction of a single-family residence with crow's nest and detached accessory structure. (Quasi-Judicial)]

TO THINK OF IT.

OUR NEXT CASE IS HGC-2026-0005, MS. SADLER.

THIS IS AN APPLICATION FOR A FINAL CERTIFICATE OF APPROVAL TO CONSTRUCT A NEW SINGLE-FAMILY HOME WITH A CROW'S NEST AND A DETACHED GARAGE ON A FULL SINGLE PEONIA LOCATED AT 707 GARDEN STREET.

THIS LOT IS SITUATED ON A BLUFF NEAR THE AMELIA RIVER.

I HAVE IT HIGHLIGHTED HERE ON THE MAP.

IT'S ONE LOT AWAY FROM THE BLUFF.

PLANS FOR THIS RESIDENCE WERE INITIALLY APPROVED AS CASE 2024-0001 IN JANUARY OF 2024.

THE ONLY POINT OF DISCUSSION REALLY ABOUT THIS CASE WAS THE HEIGHT OF THE STRUCTURE.

PER OUR LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE, THE BUILDING HEIGHT IS MEASURED FROM THE AVERAGE NATURAL GRADE OF THE PROPERTY.

THIS PROPERTY IS ON A BLUFF AND THE AVERAGE NATURAL GRADE IS 15 FEET.

MARGARET AND I MEASURED FROM THE FOUR CORNERS OF THE LOT AS WELL AS THE FOUR CORNERS OF THE BUILDING FOOTPRINT, AND BOTH OF THOSE CALCULATIONS CAME OUT TO 15 FEET.

THE BUILDING HEIGHT LIMIT IN OLD TOWN IS 35 FEET, SO FROM THAT 15-FOOT NATURAL GRADE, 35 FEET ABOVE THAT, THE ROOF HEIGHT IS LABELED AS 50 FEET TALL.

BUT THE BUILDING IS ONLY 35 FEET TALL SINCE IT'S SITTING ON THAT BLUFF.

THERE WERE A COUPLE MODIFICATIONS OF THE PLAN SINCE 2024, BUT NOTHING VERY MAJOR.

THERE WAS THE REMOVAL OF THE POOL IN PLACE OF A PEA GRAVEL TERRACE, THE SCREENING IN OF THE PORCH OFF THE PRIMARY BEDROOM, CHANGING SOME WINDOWS ON THE WEST ELEVATION, AND THE ADDITION OF TWO WINDOWS ON THE WEST SIDE OF THE GARAGE, AS WELL AS THE COLORS AND THE PAPER SELECTION TO MATCH THE PREFERENCE OF THE NEW OWNER.

SITE DESIGN OF THE BUILDING MEETS THE OTHER REQUIREMENTS OF THE OLD TOWN PRESERVATION AND DEVELOPMENT GUIDELINES.

I DID A SITE, A LOT COVERAGE CALCULATION BASED ON KIND OF OUR OLD TOWN DISCUSSIONS THAT WE'VE BEEN HAVING LATELY ABOUT CONNECTING ELEMENTS AND LOT COVERAGE AND WHAT COUNTS INTO LOT COVERAGE.

TYPICALLY, THE COVERED TERRACE AND COVERED WALKWAY ARE NOT CALCULATED AS PART OF LOT COVERAGE, AND THAT WAS LISTED AS 43% ON THE PLANS.

TYPICAL LDC AND PERVIOUS SURFACE CALCULATION.

RESIDENTIAL PROPERTIES HAVE A MAX OF 60% LOT COVERAGE.

I DID A QUICK CALCULATION WITH MY SOFTWARE IN THE OFFICE TODAY, AND IF YOU WERE TO INCLUDE THE COVERED WALKWAY AND COVERED TERRACE, WHICH IS NOT REQUIRED, THE LOT COVERAGE WOULD COME OUT TO 45.7.

I DID WANT TO PLACE A CONDITION OR RECOMMEND A CONDITION PLACED ON THIS APPLICATION THAT WASN'T INCLUDED IN MY STAFF REPORT, AND IT CAME UP IN A PRE-APPLICATION MEETING WITH...

A BOARD MEMBER.

SINCE THIS IS A BLUFF AND AN UNDEVELOPED LOT IN OLD TOWN AND IT'S VERY CLOSE TO BOSCOVELO CEMETERY, STAFF RECOMMENDS AN ARCHAEOLOGICAL SURVEY BE REQUIRED BEFORE PERMITTING.

THERE ARE A COUPLE OF COMPANIES IN NORTHEAST FLORIDA THAT CAN PERFORM THIS AND THAT WOULD KIND OF MANIFEST AS A LETTER FROM AN ARCHAEOLOGY COMPANY THAT WOULD BE ATTACHED TO THEIR PERMIT APPLICATION JUST STATING.

THAT THERE ARE NO ARCHAEOLOGICAL RESOURCES OR A PLAN TO PROTECT AND PRESERVE THEM.

WITH THAT, STAFF RECOMMENDS APPROVAL OF HCC 2026-0005 WITH THE CONDITION OF AN ARCHAEOLOGICAL SURVEY BE REQUIRED BEFORE PERMITTING.

OTHER THAN THAT, IT IS COMPLIANT WITH THE LDC, THE COMP PLAN, THE OLD TOWN GUIDELINES, AND THE SECRETARY OF INTERIOR STANDARDS.

ANY QUESTIONS FOR MS. SADLER? I DO HAVE A FEW.

WHEN I LOOK AT THE TOPOGRAPHICAL, THAT LOT, THE TOP OF THE LOT IS AT 15 FEET.

SO IS THE 15 FROM SEA LEVEL? IS THAT WHAT THEY'RE CALCULATING? THAT'S TYPICALLY HOW GRADE IS DESCRIBED.

OKAY, BECAUSE JUST IN OTHER BLUEPRINTS THAT I SEE, IT'S USUALLY BASED ON THE GRADE OF THE BUILDING.

AND THEN THEY ADD IN WHATEVER THE PILLARS MIGHT BE.

AND THEN I SEE THE FIRST FLOOR, THE SECOND FLOOR, ALL THE WAY TO THE ROOF.

AND THAT'S THE CALCULATION I SEE.

I DO SEE THAT THEY HAVE 35 FEET.

THAT'S NOT THE QUESTION.

I JUST, YOU SAID THE AVERAGE WAS 15 FEET, AND I'M JUST CLARIFYING, THAT'S FROM SEA LEVEL.

BECAUSE THERE ARE DRASTIC DROPS

[01:25:03]

ON THAT PIECE OF PROPERTY.

AND THEN THE BACK CORNERS, THE NORTHERN CORNERS WERE BOTH MEASURED AROUND 18 FEET ELEVATION.

AND THAT'S AN ELEVATION FROM LIKE A PROJECTION LIKE A NAVD, LIKE A SATELLITE IMAGE THING THAT TELLS US HOW THE TOPOGRAPHY CHANGES.

SO THE BACK CORNERS ARE MEASURED AROUND 18 FEET.

THE FRONT RIGHT CORNER IS MEASURED ABOUT 14 FEET.

IN THE BOTTOM FRONT CORNER IS AROUND 12 FEET, SO THAT KIND OF AVERAGES OUT TO BE 15.

THE OTHER QUESTION I HAD WAS THE ORIGINAL COA FROM TWO YEARS AGO WAS A FULL DIFFERENT PARTY.

SO I SEE A NUMBER OF PLACES WHERE THEY STATE THIS WAS PREVIOUSLY APPROVED.

DOES THAT SET PRECEDENCE THAT IF I BOUGHT A LOT, DID AN APPROVAL FOR SOME HOUSE, AND THEN SOLD THE LOT TO SOMEONE ELSE? THEY COULD JUST TAKE MY APPROVAL.

I DON'T KNOW.

I HAVEN'T ENCOUNTERED THAT SITUATION.

I'VE ENCOUNTERED, TOO, SINCE MY TIME HERE, THAT THE COA HAD EXPIRED.

SO THE NEW OWNERS BRING THE COA BACK FOR APPROVAL AGAIN.

I HAVEN'T ENCOUNTERED, PERSONALLY, A SITUATION WHERE SOMEONE SELLS A LOT WITH APPROVED PLANS.

AND THEN TO THE ARCHITECTS ON THIS BOARD.

THE WORDING SAID PREVIOUSLY APPROVED, SO MY ASSUMPTION WAS IT'S THE SAME BLUEPRINTS, BUT THEY'RE NOT.

SO DO YOU WHAT DO THEY CALL IT WHEN YOU PUT BUBBLES AROUND CHANGES? WOULD WE HAVE REQUIRED SOMETHING LIKE THAT WHEN SOMEONE TOOK THE EXACT SAME THINGS AND THEN GIVE IT BACK? AGAIN, I HAVE NO ARGUMENT WITH THE HOUSE.

I'M JUST TALKING ABOUT PROCEDURALLY.

WOULDN'T YOU WANT TO SEE THE CHANGES FROM ONE SET OF BLUEPRINTS TO THE OTHER? YES.

EVEN THOUGH YOU'RE USING THE SAME ONE? YES.

AS A MATTER OF FACT, THAT THAT WAS GOING TO BE MY QUESTIONS FOR ANNE WHEN SHE GETS UP HERE IS, HEY, WHAT'S DIFFERENT FROM THIS VERSION THAN THE PREVIOUS? AND THEN THE OTHER ONE IS, CAN YOU SHOW THE SITE PLAN? YES.

AND AGAIN, THIS ISN'T A CRITICISM OF THEM, BUT MAISIE, THERE'S A, NO, NO, IT SHOWS THE LOT.

THEY SHOW SUMERILIS AT, I MEAN, I'M SORRY, THEY SHOW SUMERILIS AT HALF A PIANO AWAY.

WHEN IN REALITY, IT'S A FULL PEW IN A WAY.

IT'S IN THE, UM, IT'S IN THE STAFF.

SURVEY? IS IT ON THE SURVEY? THE SURVEY, SORRY.

GIVE ME ONE SECOND.

FLOATING IN.

AND AGAIN, TO MY ARCHITECTURAL FRIENDS, IS THAT TYPICAL TO JUST NOT PUT YOUR ADJOINING LOTS IN HOW THEY LOOK? IT'S NICE TO HAVE IT FOR REFERENCE, CERTAINLY.

SO SEE, SEE HERE? SO COME DOWN A LITTLE BIT.

SO KEEP GOING, COMING DOWN.

SEE LOT EIGHT AND SEVEN.

AND THEN IT SHOWS SOME RILLIS.

IT ALMOST LOOKS LIKE THOSE ARE MEDIA PEONIES BEHIND THEM, WHEN IN REALITY, THOSE ARE FULL PEONIES GOING ALL 96 FEET.

THAT'S JUST THE, THAT'S JUST THE SURVEYOR.

DO YOU SEE ON THAT FAR LEFT LINE, IT'S A BROKEN, IT'S A DASHED LINE? WELL, THEY HAVE IT BELOW, TOO.

THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT ALSO.

THEY HAVE IT IN THE LINES BELOW, BUT THEY SHOW THE FULL MEASUREMENT.

YEAH, IT'S A LITTLE BIT OF AN ART SOMETIMES WHEN THEY DO THAT.

SEE, THESE LOTS AREN'T FULL.

THESE WERE PROCEDURAL QUESTIONS I HAD.

BOARD MEMBERS SAW A LOT THREE AND FOUR OVER HERE.

THEY'RE NOT THIS.

SKINNY, I DON'T THINK, IN REAL LIFE.

SO ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FOR MS. SADLER? ARE WE READY FOR THE APPLICANT? IS SHE READY FOR US? COULD I JUST GIVE BOB A LITTLE? SO I CALLED IT UP JUST TO MAKE SURE I GET THE TERMINOLOGY CORRECTLY.

BUT THOSE TOPOGRAPHICAL MEASUREMENTS THAT YOU SEE, LIKE RIGHT THERE, THAT'S BASED ON.

1988 NAVD.

NAVD STANDS FOR THE NORTH AMERICAN VERTICAL DATUM.

AND IT'S A FIXED DATUM ACROSS THE WHOLE COUNTRY, BASICALLY.

IT'S NOT TIED TO SEA LEVEL.

IT IS PART OF THE CALCULATION, BUT IT ISN'T STRICTLY FROM THE SEA UP.

BUT IT'S A DATUM THAT SURVEYORS USE TO SET THOSE TOPOGRAPHICAL MARKINGS.

AND THAT, IN GENERAL, TELLS YOU IT'S 15 FEET.

BASICALLY ABOVE.

DO THESE DATUM COME TO DINNER AT YOUR HOUSE? WAY TOO OFTEN, ARLENE.

WAY TOO OFTEN.

I THINK THE OTHER THING IS WHEN, YOU KNOW, IT'S KIND OF ALMOST LIKE, IT'S NOT A RANDOM NUMBER, BUT WHAT IT DOES IS WHEN YOU SEE

[01:30:01]

THE BOTTOM VALUE, IT GIVES YOU A REFERENCE POINT FOR EVERYTHING ABOVE IT.

SO IF THE BOTTOM VALUE IS 15, SO SOME PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT IT LIKE, OH MY GOSH, 50 FEET, BUT THAT'S FROM THAT VALUE, AND WE'RE STILL WORKING WITH A 35-FOOT STRUCTURE.

COME ON UP, ANN.

ANN PITTMAN FROM KOTNER ARCHITECTS, 15 NORTH 18TH STREET.

MIA DID A PRETTY GOOD JOB OF DESCRIBING EVERYTHING, BUT I GUESS I CAN ELABORATE.

THERE WERE, BASICALLY IT'S THE SAME FOOTPRINT AS BEFORE.

THERE WERE ONLY A FEW TWEAKS, LIKE THE POOL GOT TAKEN AWAY THAT WAS IN THE BACK.

THEY WANT TO SCREEN IN THE PORCH RIGHT OFF THE MASTER, AND WE CHANGED.

IN THE FRONT, WE USED TO HAVE THREE WINDOWS ON THE GROUND LEVEL ACROSS THE FRONT, SO WE REPLACED THAT WITH ONE LARGER WINDOW, OR ACTUALLY TALLER WINDOW, SAME WIDTH, AND ADDED TWO WINDOWS ON THE WEST SIDE OF THE GARAGE.

I THINK THOSE WERE THE ONLY CHANGES.

THEN THE COLORS, OF COURSE, WE WENT FROM A PINK HOUSE TO A MORE NEUTRAL GRAYISH COLOR PALETTE.

QUESTION FROM MS. PITTMAN.

ANNE, DO YOU HAVE TO KEEP ALL THE DRAINAGE ON SITE? HOW ARE YOU MANAGING DRAINAGE? WELL, NOW WE HAVE TO HAVE A CIVIL ENGINEER DO THAT BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, NOW THAT'S REQUIRED FOR NEW RESIDENTIAL.

UP ON THAT HILL? WELL, IT'S PROBABLY GOING TO BE SOME UNDERGROUND RETAINING.

AND GETTING RID OF THE POOL HELPS QUITE A BIT WITH THAT TOO.

SO DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY CONCERNS ABOUT THIS? TO TAMMY'S POINT ABOUT DRAINAGE, WILL IT HAVE GUTTERS AND DOWNSPOUTS? THAT'LL HELP.

YEAH, I'M SURE.

I'M SURE.

I MEAN, IT'S ESSENTIALLY, IN MY MIND, THE VIEW THAT YOU SEE IS IMPROVED BECAUSE I LIKE THAT LARGER SINGLE WINDOW VERSUS THE CHICKEN COOP WINDOWS THAT WAS ON THERE.

WE ALREADY ADDRESSED THE HEIGHT.

YOU KNOW, WE WENT THROUGH ALL OF THAT.

WE DID LOT COVERAGE.

WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY.

MAJOR CONCERNS LAST TIME, SO I DON'T SEE ANY ISSUES.

NO, AND NOT REALLY UNDER OUR PURVIEW, BUT I JUST THINK AS LONG AS THE DRAINAGE IS RESOLVED BECAUSE IT IS HIGHER THAN THE LOT NEXT DOOR AND THERE CAN BE SOME ISSUES WITH THAT.

BUT AS LONG AS THE ENGINEER DESIGNS IT CORRECTLY, IT'S GOOD.

YEAH, IT'S TAKING CARE OF THAT.

MR. SALA, DO YOU HAVE ANY CONCERNS OR QUESTIONS? NO.

ANY BOARD DISCUSSION? I'LL MAKE A MOTION.

VERY NICE.

UM, HOLD ON.

OPEN THE PUBLIC HEARING.

DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY ABOUT THIS CASE? OH, MS. HARRISON? CAN YOU COME UP? I KNOW IT.

THERE'S ALSO A MICROPHONE OVER HERE.

OH, THERE YOU GO.

GIVE YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS FIRST, PLEASE, MA'AM.

SOME PEOPLE STILL DON'T KNOW YOU.

I THINK THE HOUSE LOOKS VERY, VERY NICE.

I'M JUST VERY CURIOUS ABOUT A CROW'S NEST, BECAUSE IN MY MIND, A CROW'S NEST IS LIKE A POLE WITH A LITTLE SORT OF SHED STUCK ON THE TOP OF IT, AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S WHAT IT IS, IS IT? I WAS THINKING OF A PIRATE SHIP.

CROW'S NEST MYSELF, BUT IT'S JUST A WIDOW'S WALK.

WIDOW'S WALK, YEAH.

I MEAN, IT'S NOT LIKE A TRUE POP-UP CROW'S NEST.

OKAY, MS. PITTMAN IS COMING UP TO ANSWER THAT.

THANK YOU FOR COMING OUT.

IT'S THE JUMPING OFF DECK.

YEAH, IT'S JUST A MATTER OF WHAT THAT LITTLE SPACE IN THE ATTIC IS LABELED.

I'M SORRY? IT'S JUST A MATTER OF WHAT THAT SPACE IS LABELED.

IT'S JUST A SMALL SPACE THAT'S KIND OF TUCKED IN THE ATTIC AND POKES UP A LITTLE BIT TO GET A VIEW OF THE RIVER.

WHERE MOTHER SITS ON HER ROCKER.

WHERE MY DAUGHTERS WOULD HIDE ME.

IT'S NOT EVEN LIKE A THIRD FLOOR.

BASED ON THE BLUEPRINT, IT LOOKS LIKE YOU COME UP THE STAIRS AND THEN YOU WALK OUT ON THE PORCH.

THERE'S NO FLOOR UP THERE BEHIND IT.

THERE IS A LITTLE SMALL ENCLOSED SPACE.

THERE YOU CAN SEE IT.

OH, I SEE THE DOOR GOING INTO STORAGE.

THEY'LL PROBABLY USE IT FOR A STUDY OR JUST A PLACE TO GO WATCH THE SUNSET.

SUNSET, YEAH.

ANYTHING ELSE FOR MS. PITTMAN? I ALREADY LET HER SIT DOWN ONCE.

DON'T MAKE HER GET UP AGAIN.

I MOVE TO APPROVE CASE NUMBER HCC 2020.

OH NO, THAT'S THE WRONG ONE.

CLOSE THE PUBLIC HEARING.

I'M ON CASE.

LET'S SEE.

I MOVE TO APPROVE CASE NUMBER HGC 2026-0005 WITHOUT CONDITIONS.

I MOVE THAT THE HGC MAKE THE

[01:35:01]

FOLLOWING FINDINGS, THE FACTS, AND CONCLUSIONS OF LAW PART OF THE RECORD.

THAT CASE 2026-0005, AS PRESENTED, IS SUBSTANTIALLY COMPLIANT WITH THE LDC, THE SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR STANDARDS, THE OLD TOWN DEVELOPMENT AND PRESERVATION GUIDELINES, TO WARRANT FINAL APPROVAL AFTER THIS.

MEMBER KOSAK, DID YOU WANT TO INCLUDE THE ARCHAEOLOGICAL SURVEY OR WE'RE GOING TO LET THAT GO? OH, RIGHT.

CAN I ADD JUST A POINT OF WHEN THEY BUILT MEGAN'S HOUSE NEXT TO IT, MEGAN CHISHOLM'S HOUSE, THEY ACTUALLY FOUND A CANNONBALL THAT HAD GUM POWDER IN IT OR SOMETHING.

SO JUST A NOTE, WHOEVER DOES THE ARCHAEOLOGICAL, THINGS HAVE BEEN FOUND LITERALLY RIGHT THERE.

I WAS GOING TO SAY THAT TOO.

REMEMBER THE CANNONBALL? YEAH.

SO CAN I AMEND MY MOTION? HOLD ON.

MS. HARRISON HAS SOMETHING ELSE TO SAY.

OH, I'M GETTING SPEED.

YOU'VE GOT TO STOP, YOU KNOW, DRIVING THOSE MOTORCYCLES AND STUFF THAT YOU DO.

JENNIFER HARRISON, 800 SUMMERWELL STREET.

SEVERAL YEARS AGO, WHEN WE WERE TRYING TO GET SOUTH POINT ORGANIZED, A FELLOW DREW UP IN A CAR AND WE WERE CHATTING TO HIM BECAUSE THERE WERE HOUSES DOWN THERE.

ROSEMARY MILLER TOLD ME THAT HER FATHER HAD BUILT THIS LITTLE FOUR-ROOMED HOUSE SHACK FOR THEM.

THEY WERE VERY, VERY POOR.

AND HE SAID, YES, AND WE FOUND SKULLS DOWN THERE.

AND THEY WERE PLAYING ON THE AREA THAT'S NOW FENCED BY WEST ROCK.

SO THERE ARE, I MEAN...

SKULLS MEANING? FENCED ANIMALS.

IT'S APPARENTLY IT COULD HAVE BEEN MY THIS IS JUST A QUICK GUESS BUT THE PEOPLE WHO WERE ON THE SLAVE SHIPS COULD HAVE JUST BEEN TO SORT OF TOSSED OUT AND WASHED UP WHICH IS A TERRIBLE THING TO DO.

WELL HOW FUNNY.

BUT ANYWAY, IT'S I JUST THOUGHT YOU MIGHT BE INTERESTED TO HEAR THAT.

WELL AND THIS MARCH IS ACTUALLY NATIONAL ARCHAEOLOGY MARCH I WOULD LIKE TO AMEND MY MOTION TO REQUIRE A PROPER ARCHAEOLOGICAL SURVEY BE DONE.

DO I HEAR A SECOND SECOND? I HAVE A MOTION IN A SECOND.

PLEASE CALL THE ROLL REMEMBER SALA.

YES MEMBER KOUSAK.

YES, AND MY BURNS.

YES MEMBER SCHAKOWSKY VICE CHAIR PESETA.

YES ANSWER PHIL COCK YEAH, ALL RIGHT THAT TAKES US

[5.4 HDC 2026-0004 - CITY OF FERNANDINA BEACH, 1 FRONT STREET Certificate of Approval (COA) for the construction of Phase II of the Amelia River Seawall. (Quasi- Judicial)]

TO THE CITY CASES.

WE HAVE HDC 20 26-0 004 I'M GOING TO INVITE DEPUTY CITY MANAGER GLENN AKRAMOV TO THE STAGE TO PRESENT ON CITY PROJECTS AND THEN WE'LL MOVE INTO MY STAFF REPORTS FOR EACH OF THESE CASES AND WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO GET THE PODIUM TO WORK.

BRING YOUR BOTTLE OF SAND ON THE STAGE THERE TO TAP DANCE.

I'M NOT DOING THAT.

IS IT SHOWING UP THERE ON YOUR LAPTOP? IT'S NOT.

OH OKAY.

WE CAN RUN IT THROUGH YOU.

HEY, THERE IT IS.

THAT'S ME.

YEAH, THAT'S OKAY.

WE'LL DO IT THAT WAY.

GLENNA CROMWELL, DEPUTY CITY MANAGER FOR FERNANDINA BEACH.

SO BEFORE WE GET INTO OUR CASES, THERE'S A LOT OF QUESTIONS THAT COME UP OF WHY DO WE COME TO BOARDS? WHY DO WE GO THROUGH THE PROCESS? SO I WANTED TO RUN THROUGH THE PROCESS OF THE DEVELOPMENT OF A GOVERNMENT.

CAPITAL PROJECT.

THERE ARE SOME SIMILARITIES TO A PRIVATE PROJECT, BUT THERE ARE MANY NUANCED DIFFERENCES.

SO I WANTED TO HIGHLIGHT THOSE AS WE GO THROUGH.

SO THE FIRST THING WE DO IS WE PLAN A PROJECT.

WELL, PROJECTS START WITH A DREAM, RIGHT? AND ALL OF THE MAJOR CAPITAL PROJECTS THAT WE HAVE HAVE STARTED WITH SOME SORT OF DREAM.

NOW, SOME OF THE PROJECTS WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT TONIGHT WE'RE NOW IN THE SECOND PHASE OF THE DREAM, RIGHT? WE'RE GOING TO REPLACE SOMETHING THAT HAS AGED OUT OR HAD A PROBLEM.

SO WE HAVE STARTED TO CREATE WHAT WE CALL A 20-YEAR PROJECT LIST.

WE HAVE A FIVE-YEAR ADOPTED LIST THAT IS REALLY THE THINGS WE'RE REALLY FOCUSED ON, BUT THAT FIRST LEVEL IS A 20-YEAR LIST.

THE COMMUNITY WILL GET A CHANCE TO WEIGH IN ON THAT PROCESS WHEN WE START OUR COMP PLAN UPDATE.

THAT'S REALLY WHERE A LOT OF IT STARTS.

WE ALSO DO A NUMBER OF MASTER PLANS.

IF WE WERE GOING TO DO A PARKS MASTER PLAN OR A...

OR A TRANSPORTATION MASTER PLAN OR A WALKABILITY AND BIKE AND PED PLAN WOULD BE THE SAME THING.

IT WOULD TRIGGER CAPITAL PROJECTS, AND WE WOULD PRIORITIZE THEM,

[01:40:01]

BUT WE LIKE TO KEEP THAT MASTER LIST SO WE KNOW WHAT IS GOING TO GO ON.

SO THE FIVE-YEAR LIST ENDS UP BEING THE FIRST THING WHERE WE START TO GET REAL.

WE START TO PUT MONEY TO IT, AND WE START TALKING ABOUT HOW WE'RE GOING TO FUND THESE THINGS AND WHEN WE WOULD PRIORITIZE THEM TO ACTUALLY GET THEM DONE.

SO I'LL USE THE EXAMPLE OF THE WATERFRONT PARK.

I THINK THAT'S A REALLY GOOD EXAMPLE BECAUSE IT WAS ON A LONG-RANGE LIST.

IT WAS A DREAM.

THEN IT BECAME A SHORT-TERM LIST, AND WE CAME UP WITH THE FUNDING SOURCES.

THERE ARE A LOT OF DIFFERENT FUNDING SOURCES, BUT THERE ARE LIMITS TO ALL OF THEM WHEN IT COMES TO GOVERNMENT.

SO AS AN EXAMPLE, THE WATERFRONT PARK IS PAID FOR BY IMPACT.

FEES BECAUSE IT'S A NEW PARK.

THE ONLY WAY WE COULD FUND IT IS IF IT ADDED NEW PIECES BECAUSE THE IMPACT FEES COME FROM DEVELOPERS AS THEY COME IN TO PAY FOR THEIR IMPACT AND THEIR INCREASE.

WE CAN ALSO DO IT THROUGH GENERAL FUNDS.

WE CAN DO IT THROUGH GRANTS.

WE CAN FIND, WE ALSO HAVE LIKE IF WE'RE GOING TO DO A STORM WATER PORTION OF SOMETHING OR WE'RE GOING TO ADD A NEW WATER REMAIN, IT CAN COME FROM THE UTILITY FUNDS.

A LOT OF TIMES YOU FIND WHERE PROJECTS ARE MULTI, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE MULTIPLE COLORS OF MONEY IS THE WAY I LIKE TO PUT IT.

SO WE HAVE TO DECIDE WHAT THAT'S GOING TO BE.

THE BIGGEST CHALLENGE WHEN WE DO THAT IS THAT WE'RE FIVE YEARS AWAY, AND THEN WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT HOW DO WE, WHAT DO WE ESCALATE, HOW ARE THE COSTS GOING TO HAPPEN.

AND THEN THE BIDDING ENVIRONMENT IS VERY NUANCED FOR GOVERNMENT IN THAT MANY CONTRACTORS...

THEY'LL DO PUBLIC AND PRIVATE PROJECTS.

SO IN ORDER FOR THEM, WHEN THEY'RE DOING REALLY WELL, SOMETIMES THE GOVERNMENT PROJECTS HAVE TOO MANY LIMITS.

THEY CAN'T MOVE AS FAST.

SO THEY WILL TEND TO GO ON THE PRIVATE SIDE.

FAIR ENOUGH.

WHEN THE PRIVATE SIDE IS DROPPING A LITTLE BIT, THEN WE'RE GUARANTEED MONEY, RIGHT? ONCE THEY START WITH US, WE'RE GUARANTEED MONEY.

THERE AREN'T THE NUANCES OF...

SOMEBODY GOING BANKRUPT OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

SO THEY TEND TO COME TO US.

SO THE BIDDING ENVIRONMENT IS VERY NUANCED.

AND SO THAT, WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TIMING AND TRYING TO PUT SOMETHING, AS WE CALL IT, PUT IT TO THE STREET SO THAT EVERYONE CAN START BIDDING ON IT, THAT'S A BIG FACTOR FOR US IS CAN WE GET A GOOD BID.

THE PROJECT RIGHT HERE ON ASH IS A GREAT EXAMPLE.

IT WAS PROJECTED TO COST $2.1 MILLION AND IT COST $1.9 IN THE BID, SO IT'S A GOOD THING.

SO WE HIT THE ENVIRONMENT RIGHT.

SO PART OF THE I THINK WE CAN GO TO THE NEXT ONE.

SO THEN BEFORE AS WE'VE DONE ALL THAT, NOW WE'VE GOT TO FIGURE OUT DESIGN.

NOW, WHEN WE PICK OUT A PROJECT THAT IS WE DECIDE HOW MUCH IT'S GENERALLY GOING TO COST.

WE DON'T REALLY KNOW UNTIL WE DESIGN IT.

BECAUSE THERE'S SO MANY NUANCED PARTS, AND ALL THE ARCHITECTS HERE KNOW THAT.

YOU PROJECT AND YOU PROJECT UNTIL YOU REALLY HAVE A GOOD DESIGN, AND YOU REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT IT COSTS.

SO WE HAVE AN IDEA OF HOW WE'RE GOING TO PAY FOR IT, BUT WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THE COSTS ARE.

WE NEED TO PAY THE DESIGNER LIKE EVERYBODY DOES, SO WE HIRE A FIRM.

WE HAVE A LIST OF FIRMS THAT WE ASK TO COME ON A LIST, AND THEY GIVE US PROPOSALS.

AND THEN WE KEEP THAT LIST FOR THREE YEARS, AND WE CAN PULL OFF THAT LIST TO HAVE THEM.

AND WE LOOK FOR A COUPLE OF FACTORS, BUT ONE OF THEM IS THEIR EXPERTISE IN THAT AREA.

YOU KNOW, IF THEY'RE GOING TO BUILD THE PARK, WE WANT AN ARCHITECT, LANDSCAPE ARCHITECTS, AND THE FOLKS WHO BUILD PARKS, AND WE WANT THE BEST THAT WE CAN.

SO THAT APPROACH, WE TEND TO USE THAT APPROACH, AND THAT ALMOST ALL OF OUR DESIGNS REQUIRE WE GO THROUGH THE GO THROUGH THE COMMISSION TO GET APPROVAL, WE BUDGET FOR THAT, AND THEN WE MOVE FORWARD.

ANYWHERE BETWEEN...

A PROJECT FOR US TAKES ANYWHERE FROM FOUR TO SIX YEARS TO REALLY PLAN FROM THE DAY WE START DESIGNING IT.

NOW, WE CAN MOVE FASTER AT TIMES, BUT FOR MOST BIG PROJECTS, ANYTHING FOR US OVER $3 OR $4 MILLION, WE CAN'T.

IT'S GOING TO TAKE US THAT LONG TO GO THROUGH BECAUSE THERE'S SO MANY NUANCES TO IT.

AND WE'LL TALK A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THE SPECIFIC NUANCES WHEN WE GET TO THE CASES.

BUT, UM...

IN THE GOVERNMENT PROCESS, WE NOT ONLY HAVE THE STAFF AND THE COMMISSION, WE HAVE THE BOARDS THAT WE COME TO.

I'LL TALK ABOUT WHY WE'RE HERE FOR A LOT OF THIS IN A SECOND.

[01:45:01]

BUT WE ALSO HAVE THE COMMUNITY.

THEY ALL HAVE A SAY-SO IN EVERY NUANCED PART OF WHAT WE DO.

SO WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE DO A GOOD PUBLIC EDUCATION PIECE.

WHY ARE WE DOING THIS? WHAT ARE WE DOING? DOES IT REALLY MEET THE COMP PLAN AND ALL THE OTHER ITEMS THAT WE NEED TO MEET? AND THOSE ARE ALWAYS THE TRUE TESTS FOR US AS WE START STRATEGICALLY GOING THROUGH THE DESIGN PROCESS.

WE GO THROUGH A, SIMILAR TO MOST I THINK, WE GO THROUGH A 30%, 60%, 90%.

ANYWHERE FROM 90 TO 100% IS WHERE WE PUT IT ON THE STREET.

AND GET IT READY TO GO.

THERE'S SO MANY NUANCES IN THAT.

OF COURSE, THE BIG DESIGN PORTIONS ARE USUALLY FROM THE 30 TO THE 60% PROJECTS, BUT ARE AS FAR AS THE DESIGN PROCESS GOES.

BUT THERE ARE MANY NUANCES.

ONE OF THE BIGGEST ONES IS PERMITTING.

WE HAVE TO DO OUR OWN PERMITTING, OF COURSE, AND WE'RE NOT.

ANY DIFFERENT THAN ANY OF THE OTHER DEVELOPERS OUT THERE.

WHEN WE'RE DOING A PROJECT, WE'RE REQUIRED TO FOLLOW ALL THE SAME REGULATIONS.

WE ALSO TEND TO OWN PROPERTIES AS A CITY THAT ARE LESS DEVELOPABLE THAN OTHERS.

THAT MAKES SENSE, RIGHT? WE WANT OUR DEVELOPERS DEVELOPING THE ONES THAT THEY CAN DEVELOP FAST, AND THAT HELPS.

OUR COMMUNITY GROW.

SO WE END UP TO HAVING THE CHALLENGING ONES, WHICH MEANS WE, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WATERFRONT, WE HAVE MULTIPLE JURISDICTIONS OF PERMITS FROM THE STATE AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THAT WE NEED TO GO THROUGH.

THEY ALL HAVE DIFFERING REQUIREMENTS.

THEIR REQUIREMENTS ARE, AND FOR SOME FOLKS WHO HAVE OWNED PROPERTY ON THE WATERFRONT, THEY KNOW HOW DIFFICULT IT IS SOMETIMES TO GET THROUGH THE FEDERAL PROCESS BECAUSE IT'S IT'S VERY NUANCED IN THAT IT DEPENDS ON WHO YOUR PERMIT COORDINATOR IS THAT YOU'RE WORKING WITH.

SO ONCE WE GET THROUGH PERMITTING AND WE PLAN IN OUR SCHEDULE PROCESS, THAT'S PART OF THE FOUR TO SIX YEARS, IS THE BULK OF IT IS THAT PERMIT BECAUSE WE REALLY HAVE TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT GOING TO BID BEFORE WE HAVE A PERMIT IN HAND.

SO ONCE WE'RE READY TO GO AND WE'RE GETTING READY TO GO ON A NUMBER OF YOU PROJECTS RIGHT NOW, THEN WE WORK WITH OUR CONSULTANT, CREATE A SPEC BOOK.

A LOT OF THOSE SPECIFICATIONS ARE CONTROLLED AND HIGHLIGHTED IN STATE AND FEDERAL REQUIREMENTS.

IN MANY CASES, WE NEED TO FOLLOW THOSE, AND SOMETIMES WE CAN BE NUANCED AND WE JUST GOT TO FOLLOW OUR OWN, BUT WE TEND TO PUT THEM IN THERE SO THE CONTRACTOR CAN GIVE US A REALLY GOOD BID.

THE TIGHTER THAT IS, THE MORE PREDICTABLE OUR BID IS.

SO WE WORK REALLY HARD ON DOING THAT.

ONCE WE PUT IT OUT ON THE STREET, WE GET OUR BIDS.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS NUANCED IS WE GET TO TALK WITH THEM AND GIVE THEM INFORMATION UNTIL WE PUT IT ON THE STREET.

AND THEN WE'RE REQUIRED, WE'VE GOT TO ZIP OUR MOUTHS, WE CAN'T BE GIVING THEM INFORMATION BECAUSE WE CAN'T SHOW FAVORITISM TO ANY OF THE BIDDERS AT ALL.

AND THAT'S ONE OF THOSE GOVERNMENT THINGS THAT, HAVING DONE A FEW PROJECTS ON THE PRIVATE SIDE, THAT YOU CAN CONTINUE TO DO THAT AND GET THE BEST DEAL YOU WANT.

FOR US, WE'VE GOT TO BE REALLY ETHICALLY STRONG ON THAT.

SO WE DO A PRE-WALK WHERE WE CAN ACTUALLY TELL THEM BEFORE THEY BID, AND THAT'S REALLY WHEN OUR INFORMATION STOPS.

THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IN THAT IS THAT IF THEY ASK QUESTIONS, SO IF A...

A BIDDER ASKS US QUESTIONS.

WE WILL ANSWER IT, BUT WE HAVE TO ANSWER IT FOR EVERYONE WHO HAS A SET OF PLANS.

SO THEN WE WILL ISSUE THAT, AND WE HAVE A PERIOD OF TIME WHERE WE CAN DO THOSE AMENDMENTS, THOSE BID AMENDMENTS.

WHEN WE END THAT, THEN THAT'S THE END, AND THEY WILL BID ON THAT FINAL PIECE.

THEN WE DO A BID OPENING.

WE DO THEM ONLINE NOW, BUT THEY'RE OPENED ALL AT ONCE.

AND THEN WE ANNOUNCE WHO IS THE APPARENT LOW BIDDER.

AND, YES, WE GENERALLY HAVE TO GO WITH THE LOW BIDDER AS LONG AS THEY'RE QUALIFIED.

AND THAT'S THE REVIEW PROCESS THAT WE GO THROUGH.

WE MAKE SURE THEY MET ALL THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE BID.

AND THERE'S MANY TIMES WHEN YOU HAVE ONE OR TWO DISQUALIFIED BECAUSE THEY DON'T.

AND THEN WE MAKE SURE THAT ALL THEIR MATH IS RIGHT AND ALL THAT STUFF.

SO WE'VE GOT TO GO THROUGH THAT.

IT TAKES US ABOUT A WEEK TO GET THROUGH THAT PROCESS.

AND THEN WE ANNOUNCE, WE LET THEM KNOW THAT THEY'RE THE APPARENT LOW BIDDER.

BEFORE, A LOT OF TIMES WHAT'S HAPPENED IN THE PAST IN THE CITY, THAT'S THE TIME THEY COME TO YOU AND THEY COME THROUGH THE BOARDS.

[01:50:02]

WE'VE ACTUALLY COME TO YOU BEFORE WE BID THIS TIME.

WE THINK THAT'S A BETTER PRACTICE.

SO IF THERE'S INPUT AND THERE'S NUANCES, WE CAN INCLUDE IT IN OUR FINAL DESIGN AND IT'S INCLUDED IN OUR BID PACKAGE.

AND IT DOESN'T, IT TAKES THE PRESSURE OFF OF YOU, BUT IT ALSO TAKES IT OFF OF US TO MAKE SURE WE GET EVERYTHING RIGHT.

ONCE WE BID THE...

ONCE WE SELECT SOMEBODY, THEN WE HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE PROCESS OF TAKING IT TO COMMISSION.

THEY HAVE TO APPROVE THE MONEY AGAIN BECAUSE IT MAY BE DIFFERENT THAN WHAT WE ORIGINALLY PROPOSED, AND THEY HAVE TO APPROVE THE BID AND APPROVE EVERYTHING FOR CONSTRUCTION.

ONCE WE GO TO CONSTRUCTION, THEN WE DO A PRE-BID MEETING, AND WE'LL GET STARTED WITH THEM, AND THEN WE GET GOING.

ONE OF THE KEY PARTS IS THAT...

A LOT OF TIMES CITIES HAVE FALTERED ON IS THE CONTRACT ADMINISTRATION, AND WE'VE HAD CHALLENGES OF THAT HERE.

YOU CAN DO A LOT OF IT IN-HOUSE, BUT AS WE'RE GOING TO SEE OVER THE NEXT FIVE YEARS, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE FOUR OR FIVE MAJOR PROJECTS, AND BY MAJOR I MEAN OVER $5 MILLION EACH, THAT WE HAVE TWO STAFF WHO ARE MANAGING.

AND SO WE HAVE TO BE REALLY WORKING WITH OUR...

OUR ARCHITECTS AND OUR ENGINEER FIRMS AND OUR DESIGNERS TO MAKE SURE THAT WE HAVE THEIR SUPPORT TO DO THAT.

AND INSPECTION, A THIRD-PARTY INSPECTOR IS ALSO IMPORTANT IN THAT PROCESS BECAUSE IF YOU'RE A DESIGNER, YOU HAVE YOUR EGO TIED UP IN THE DESIGN, WHICH WE TOTALLY GET.

THAT'S WHAT WE WANT.

BUT WE NEED TO HAVE SOMEONE LOOKING AT IT FROM WHO'S NOT AN OWNER AND NOT THE DESIGNER.

SO WE'LL GO THROUGH THE PROCESS.

PROJECTS, ONE OF THE KEY NUANCES TO PROJECT ADMINISTRATION IS CHANGE ORDERS ARE A BIG DEAL.

AND WE TRY TO BE AS TIGHT AS WE CAN, BUT YOU CAN'T PREDICT EVERYTHING.

AND SO WE HAVE...

YOU TEND TO HAVE CHANGE ORDERS.

I THINK WE'RE UP TO ABOUT 25 CHANGE ORDERS AT THE PARK, BUT ONLY ABOUT 14 OR 15 OF THEM HAVE BEEN APPROVED BECAUSE WE MAKE OTHER ARRANGEMENTS OR WE COME UP WITH OTHER OPPORTUNITIES TO DO THAT.

BUT THAT'S FAIRLY TYPICAL FOR A PROJECT OF ANY SIZE.

THOSE ARE REALLY THE CHALLENGES FOR A CITY.

BECAUSE WHEN YOU HAVE A CHANGE ORDER AND IT'S OVER A CERTAIN DOLLAR AMOUNT, WE HAVE TO COME BACK TO COMMISSION.

AND IF WE COME BACK TO COMMISSION, AS WE HEARD EARLIER, IT'S ANYWHERE FROM 45 TO 60 DAYS TO GO THROUGH THE ENTIRE PROCESS.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU AGREE ON IN A CONTRACT IS HOW MANY DAYS YOU HAVE TO FINISH IT IN A GOVERNMENT CONTRACT.

AND THEY'RE REQUIRED TO DO THAT OR THEY'RE FINED.

AND SO IF THEY DON'T MEET THEIR SUBSTANTIAL COMPLETION DATE.

THE TWO THINGS THAT THEY WANT WHEN THEY HAVE A CHANGE ORDER IS, ONE, THEY WANT THE MONEY AND WHAT IT'S GOING TO COST AND THEIR PROFIT AND ALL THAT, AND THEY WANT DAYS.

SO IF WE HAVE A 60-DAY DELAY, WE'RE GOING TO GIVE THEM DAYS, AND THEN IF IT HURTS MOBILIZATION, THEY WILL DEMOB AND THEN CHARGE US FOR MOBILIZATION AGAIN.

AND SO OUR COSTS ESCALATE LIKE CRAZY.

SO WHEN WE'RE MANAGING A PROJECT, THAT IS OUR NUMBER ONE THING.

KEEP THOSE KEEP THOSE CHANGE ORDERS MINOR AND KEEP THEM MOVING.

AND SO THAT'S REALLY ONE OF THE CHALLENGES ABOUT SOME OF THE CASES WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT TONIGHT.

WE'LL GET INTO THOSE SPECIFICS LATER.

SO ONCE WE'RE DONE, AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GETTING NEAR FINISH, THE FINISH LINE.

WE HAVE ALL KINDS OF, WE HAVE PUNCH LISTS AND WE HAVE ALL KINDS OF FACTORS THAT HAPPEN AND HOW WE PAY THE MONEY.

WE KEEP RETAINAGE TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY DO WHAT THEY SAY THEY WERE GOING TO DO.

AND THAT ALLOWS US TO HAVE THAT FINANCIAL LEVERAGE TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY FULFILL THEIR PUNCH LIST ITEMS AND FULFILL ALL THEIR REQUIREMENTS.

ONCE WE ACCEPT EVERYTHING AND EVERYTHING IS FINALLY PAID, THEN WE HAVE A PROJECT.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE WILL BE BRINGING FORWARD WHEN WE DO OUR FUTURE PROJECTS IS WHAT THE MAINTENANCE COSTS ARE AND THE OPERATING COSTS ARE.

BEFORE THE APPROVAL OF THE CAPITAL PROJECT.

THAT'S ONE OF THE CHALLENGES.

AND IT IS VERY, EVERYTHING HAS A LIFE CYCLE.

AND YOU TRY TO MAKE IT AS LONG AS POSSIBLE.

AND MAINTENANCE, GOOD MAINTENANCE PRACTICES ALLOW YOU TO DO THAT.

BUT REALLY WHAT YOU'RE DOING WITH GOOD MAINTENANCE PRACTICES IS HOLDING THE LIFE CYCLE.

YOU'RE NOT EXTENDING IT.

I MEAN, CONCRETE, WOOD, AS YOU ALL KNOW, ONLY LASTS SO LONG.

AND YOU CAN'T, YOU.

[01:55:01]

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO MAKE IT GO 60 YEARS IF IT CAN ONLY GO 50.

BUT THE IDEA TO PROTECT THE PUBLIC INVESTMENT, WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO MAINTAIN THEM AT A HIGH LEVEL SO WE GET TO 50 YEARS.

SO ONE EXAMPLE, WE'VE TALKED SOME ABOUT DOWNTOWN AND NEEDING ALL THE REPLACEMENT.

IN 2028, ALL OF THE DOWNTOWN INFRASTRUCTURE THAT'S THERE, MOST OF IT, IS 50 YEARS OLD.

SO WE'VE GOTTEN OUR LIFE OUT OF THAT, BUT IT'S TIME TO REPLACE IT.

SO, BUT THOSE MAINTENANCE PRACTICES ARE VERY IMPORTANT, AND THOSE MAINTENANCE COSTS.

BECAUSE WHEN YOU DON'T FUND THE MAINTENANCE PIECE OF IT, THEN YOU START TO LOSE LIFE.

AND THAT'S WHERE YOUR CAPITAL PROGRAM FALLS APART.

BECAUSE IF YOU'RE TRYING TO TURN THINGS AROUND THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO GO 50 YEARS AND THEY'RE GOING 25, YOU CAN NEVER CATCH UP.

YOU CAN NEVER GET THE BIG THINGS DONE.

NOW, YOU CAN KICK CERTAIN THINGS DOWN THE ROAD IF YOU'RE TAKING CARE OF THEM.

YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO EXTEND THEM A YEAR OR TWO.

OR EVEN FIVE.

BUT IF THEY SHORTEN UP AND THEY FAIL, YOU'VE GOT TO REPLACE THEM OR YOUR COMMUNITY FAILS.

SO THAT'S WE DEFINITELY WANTED TO TALK ABOUT THAT.

I THINK THAT'S THE LAST SLIDE.

THAT'S THE LAST SLIDE.

SO I JUST FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE, I WANTED TO BE ABLE TO WALK THROUGH WHAT A CAPITAL PROJECT REALLY IS FOR A GOVERNMENT.

ONE OF THE MOST REWARDING PARTS OF DOING A PUBLIC PROJECT AND ONE OF THE MOST CHALLENGING IS ITS PUBLIC MONEY.

SO WE'RE SPENDING TAX MONEY, WHETHER WE GET GRANTS OR WHATEVER, IT'S ALMOST ALWAYS TAX MONEY.

AND SO WE HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL AND VERY DILIGENT ABOUT HOW WE GO ABOUT DOING THAT AND SPENDING THAT, WHICH IS WHY PRE-PLANNING IS SO IMPORTANT TO EACH PROJECT.

SO THANK YOU FOR INDULGING ME WITH THAT, AND THEN WE'LL...

I WOULD LIKE TO COMMENT ON MR. ACKERMANN.

I'VE LIVED IN FERNANDINA FOR 23 YEARS NOW.

THIS IS THE YEAR COMING INTO THE CITY IS THE FIRST TIME THAT I HAVE HEARD THE CITY ACTUALLY VALUE PROJECT MANAGEMENT AND KNOW HOW THE PROJECT MUST GO THROUGH ITS PHASES AND MUST BE FUNDED APPROPRIATELY.

MUST, WHAT WE USED TO CALL IT IN CORPORATE AMERICA, WAS TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP.

WE HAD TO PROVIDE THAT FOR EVERY PROJECT WE DID IN A BUSINESS ENVIRONMENT, AND THAT HAD NEVER HAPPENED HERE, WHICH I THINK HAS CONTRIBUTED TO MAINTENANCE THAT NEVER GOT DONE, RIGHT? AND WE ALWAYS TREATED IT LIKE AN EMERGENCY AND HAD TO, FOR EXAMPLE, REPLACE.

ALL THE PARK EQUIPMENT AT CENTRAL PARK WITH PRIVATE DONATIONS BECAUSE WE HAD NOT PLANNED APPROPRIATELY FOR WHAT THE TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP FOR THAT EQUIPMENT WOULD BE.

AND I DON'T THINK THAT FOLKS IN THE CITY DIDN'T WANT TO DO IT.

THEY JUST DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO DO IT, AND THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE LEADERSHIP TO TAKE THEM.

SO THE GOOD NEWS ABOUT THIS TO ME IS THAT CITY MANAGEMENT HAS...

UNDERSTOOD THAT GAP IN OUR SKILL SET INTERNALLY IN THE CITY AND HAS ADDRESSED IT.

SO I'M VERY HAPPY THAT THIS IS HAPPENING.

WELL, AND IT'S NOT JUST PROJECT MANAGEMENT.

YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A CIP PLAN, I MEAN, YOU'RE PREACHING TO THE CHOIR.

YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE TO DO ALL THE TIME WITH THESE OLD STRUCTURES.

YOU HAVE TO MAINTAIN THEM.

YOU DON'T JUST DO IT ONCE AND YOU'RE DONE.

SO, YEAH, WE GET THAT.

AND...

I'M GLAD TO SEE THE CITY GETS IT.

BECAUSE THE CITY IN THE PAST HAS NOT ALWAYS GOTTEN IT, OR AT LEAST NOT BEEN FUNDED TO BE ABLE TO DO IT THE PROPER WAY.

THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT.

THE ENCOURAGING THING THAT I HEARD IN YOUR PRESENTATION WAS, IN THE PAST, LONG BEFORE YOUR TENURE, THE CITY MIGHT COME BEFORE OUR BOARD.

BUT THEY REALLY WEREN'T COMING TO GET OUR INPUT ON ANYTHING.

THEY JUST WANTED US TO APPROVE IT.

AND IF WE HAD ANY COMMENTS, THE ANSWER WAS ALWAYS, WELL, IT'S ALREADY BEEN DESIGNED.

IT'S ALREADY BEEN FUNDED.

WE'VE ALREADY GONE THROUGH ALL THE PERMITS.

WE CAN'T CHANGE ANYTHING.

YOUR ROLE HERE IS TO JUST SAY YES.

AND BRINGING STUFF TO US TO SOLICIT OUR INPUT.

PRIOR TO GOING DOWN THE ENTIRE ROAD MAKES A WHOLE LOT

[02:00:01]

OF SENSE TO ME BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF EXPERTISE SITTING UP HERE THAT YOU CAN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF AND HOPEFULLY ONCE IN A WHILE WE HAVE A GOOD IDEA.

I THINK THAT'S TRUE.

I ALSO THINK THAT IN THE PAST, BEFORE YOU'RE MAYBE EVEN CONTINUED INTO YOUR TIME, BUT SQUELCHED A LITTLE BIT, HAS BEEN THERE'S BEEN A RESISTANCE TO COME BEFORE THE BOARD BECAUSE THEY'RE JUST GOING TO TELL ME I'VE GOT TO DO SOMETHING I DON'T WANT TO DO.

AND SO THERE HAVE BEEN PROJECTS IN THE PAST THAT SHOULD HAVE COME TO THIS BOARD.

THAT DIDN'T OR PROJECTS IN THE PAST THAT SHOULD HAVE GONE TO SOME OTHER BOARD THAT DIDN'T.

SO I APPRECIATE, ON BEHALF OF ALL OF US, I APPRECIATE YOU DOING THIS.

SO ARE YOU UP NOW? YES.

WE'VE GOT TWO CASES WHERE THE CITY IS APPLICANT.

SINCE THEY'RE PREPARED BY DIFFERENT ENGINEERING AND PLANNING FIRMS, THEY'RE BEING PRESENTED AS TWO CASES.

BUT IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THERE ARE TWO HALVES OF THE SAME PROJECT.

THE FIRST ONE IS HCC 2026-0004.

THIS IS AN APPLICATION FOR A FINAL CERTIFICATE OF APPROVAL TO CONSTRUCT A RESILIENCY WALL, 631 FEET OF SHEET PILE AND CONCRETE CAP.

ON THIS SLIDE, I HAVE A SECTION THAT SHOWS THE SHEET PILE DOWN HERE AND THE CONCRETE CAP ON TOP, AND THEN A SITE PLAN THAT SHOWS THAT IT'S GOING.

ALONG SOUTH FRONT STREET, AND YOU CAN SEE THE PATON QUARTZ HERE.

IT GOES RIGHT UP TO THE EDGE OF THE WATERFRONT PARK AND CONNECTS TO THE EXISTING CONCRETE WALL.

THE ELEVATION, THE FINAL ELEVATION, BASED ON THE FEASIBILITY STUDY, WILL BE 9 FEET NAVD 88. SO THAT WAS THAT DATUM THAT MEMBER POSETA WAS TALKING ABOUT.

WE'RE ESSENTIALLY 9 FEET ABOVE, QUOTE-UNQUOTE, SEA LEVEL THERE.

AND THE TOPOGRAPHY ELEVATION THERE, THE AVERAGE NATURAL GRADE, IS BETWEEN FOUR AND FIVE FEET.

SO AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHEN THIS IS CONSTRUCTED, THERE WILL BE FOUR TO FIVE FEET OF THAT RESILIENCY WALL ON THE WEST SIDE OF SOUTH FRONT STREET.

SO THIS IS AN ELEVATION SEGMENT FROM KINLEY HORN.

AND THEN THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT THEY PROVIDED TO ME.

BUT WHEN I ASKED, IS THIS A SHEET PILE WITH A CONCRETE TAP? THEY SAID YES.

SO THIS IS THE CLOSEST THING I HAVE FOR RENDERING FOR THIS PROJECT.

THIS...

THE PLAN FOR THE RESILIENCY WALL IS COMPATIBLE WITH THE CITY'S NEWLY ADOPTED ADAPTATION PLAN, THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN, THE LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE, AND THE CRA DESIGN GUIDELINES.

THIS PROJECT IS NOT LOCATED IN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT, BUT IT IS IN THE CRA, SO IT IS UNDER YOUR PURVIEW.

AND I DO BELIEVE THAT THE INDUSTRIAL WORKING WATERFRONT CONCRETE AND STEEL IS ALIGNED WITH THE CRA DESIGN GUIDELINES, AND STAFF IS RECOMMENDING APPROVAL OF THE CASE.

ANY QUESTIONS FOR MS. ZADLER? OH, I ALSO HAVE SOME SITE PHOTOS HERE.

YOU CAN SEE THE WALL WE CONSTRUCTED OVER HERE ON THE WEST SIDE.

SO DOES THIS END AT MR. COOK'S PROPERTY, OR IS THAT A LITTLE BIT BEFORE THAT? I CAN ZOOM INTO THE SITE PLAN.

MR. COOK? YES.

WE ALSO HAVE AN APPLICANT HERE.

HE MIGHT BE BETTER SUITED TO ANSWER THE QUESTION.

YES, IT'LL STOP JUST SHORT OF THE DRIVEWAY.

THE WALL WILL CONTINUE EVENTUALLY FURTHER, BUT AT THIS POINT, THE PROPERTY OWNER TO THE SOUTH AND US ARE NOT IN NEGOTIATING TERMS FOR THAT, SO WE WILL DO THAT AT A LATER TIME.

HOW DID THAT WORK FOR YOU, MR. PRINCE? THAT'S WHY IT STOPS THERE.

ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? I WILL OPEN THE PUBLIC HEARING.

OPEN THE PUBLIC HEARING.

DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY ABOUT THIS PROJECT? CLOSE THE PUBLIC HEARING FOR DISCUSSION.

ANY COMMENTS? MY UNDERSTANDING, THIS IS INTEGRAL TO THE WHOLE HARDENING OF THE COAST THERE.

YEP.

I MEAN, COULD YOU COME UP, SIR, PLEASE? THE PLAN, LONGER-RANGE PLAN, IS TO EXTEND THIS SORT OF CONSTRUCTION ALL THE WAY NORTH TO WHAT AREA? TO THE PORT.

TO THE PORT.

[02:05:01]

THERE'S A LOT OF PUBLIC-PRIVATE CONVERSATION THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN, BUT THAT'S THE LONG-RANGE PLAN.

AND WHAT'S THE LIFE EXPECTANCY OF A SHEET PILE IN CONCRETE IN A BRACKISH ENVIRONMENT? YOU'RE LOOKING AT LIKE 25 YEARS, 35 YEARS? WELL, THE ONE THAT WE HAVE LASTED ALMOST 50.

SO WE WOULD SAY THAT IT WOULD BE IN THAT 35 TO 50 RANGE.

SOME OF THE...

SHEET PILES THAT ARE IN THE CURRENT SECTION ARE NOT STEEL.

SO THAT MAY BE, THAT DEFINITELY EXTENDS TO LIFE.

CONCRETE BECOMES THE ISSUE THERE.

AND CONCRETE REALLY HAS, IN THIS ENVIRONMENT, PROBABLY HAS A 50-YEAR LIFE.

SO WE'RE LOOKING IN THERE SOMEWHERE.

GLENN, YOU JUST USED TERMINOLOGY THAT I THINK.

A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE UNAWARE OF, YOU SAID THERE IS ONE THERE NOW.

YES, AT THE PARK.

SO AT THE PARK SITE, THERE IS THE FIRST SECTION OF THE RESILIENCY WALL HAS ALREADY BEEN ESTABLISHED.

BUT THERE WAS AN OLD ONE AT ONE POINT, CORRECT? YES.

THAT'S STILL BEING ADDRESSED WITH THIS LONG-RANGE PROJECT.

YES, THERE WAS.

IT'S NOT LIKE SOMEBODY JUST DREAMED UP, LET'S DO A SEAWALL.

NO, NOT AT ALL.

AND, OF COURSE, ANYONE WHO...

IT COMES HERE DURING STORMS AND OUR KING TIDES.

YOU CAN SEE THAT WE HAVE A COUPLE OF PLACES THAT WE DEFINITELY NEED IT TO PROTECT OUR DOWNTOWN, AND THAT'S REALLY THE MAIN PURPOSE.

BUT, YES, WE HAVE PORTIONS OF A SEAWALL ALREADY IN PLACE.

THIS ONE DOESN'T HAVE ONE, BUT AS YOU GET FROM THE BOAT LAUNCH NORTH, THERE ARE PARTS OF SEAWALL ALL THROUGH THAT.

I HAVE AN ENGINEERING QUESTION FOR YOU.

YOU DON'T REALLY KNOW IT'S THERE.

WE HAVE THE EXISTING.

WHERE IT HAS THE CONCRETE CAP ON IT JUST IN BETWEEN THE BOARDWALK AND LAND SIDE.

SO WE'VE HAD OVER THE YEARS, BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF THE HARDENING SUBSIDENCE THAT HAS OCCURRED WITH THE TIDES, YOU KNOW, AND WATER COMING IN, AND WE'VE HAD THE WATER, THE GROUND ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, SUBSIDE THERE.

SO, I MEAN, THIS IS ALL BEFORE YOU, ALL THESE DECISIONS.

FORWARD ARE THERE ANY IMPROVEMENTS MADE TO MITIGATE THAT MOVING FORWARD? WELL, I THINK THAT'S WHEN WE DESIGNED THE SEAWALL, THE CURRENT SEAWALL, WE'VE GONE DEEPER THAN THEY DID.

WE'RE USING MUCH MORE BETTER PROVEN TECHNIQUES AND ENGINEERING TECHNIQUES TO BE ABLE TO MEET THOSE NEEDS.

SO THOSE ARE, THEY'RE NOT IMPOSSIBLE, RIGHT? MOTHER NATURE HAS A WAY OF WORKING AROUND US.

BUT...

THESE TECHNIQUES HAVE BEEN PROVEN THROUGHOUT THE WORLD AS SOME OF THE MOST EFFECTIVE.

AND SINCE WE BUILT IT, YOU KNOW, THERE HAVE BEEN, YOU KNOW, HUNDREDS AND THOUSANDS, THOUSANDS OF MILES AT LEAST THROUGHOUT THE WORLD THAT HAVE BEEN BUILT WITH SOME OF THE SAME TECHNIQUES WE USE.

SO THIS IS AN IMPROVEMENT.

WE'RE NOT THROWING GOOD MONEY AFTER BAD.

NO, NO, NO.

THIS IS THE SAME THING.

I THINK WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT IT, THOSE ARE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT, YOU KNOW, DEGRADATION COMES FROM.

THAT'S GOOD.

HOW IT COMES FROM BEHIND THE WALL, NOT AT THE WALL AS MUCH.

AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH THE NEXT CASE WE'LL TALK ABOUT.

BUT IT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WE'RE EXTENDING THIS FAR, IS BECAUSE WHEN YOU GO DOWN, YOU CAN STILL HAVE IT COME BACK ON THE BACKSIDE AND COME AROUND, AND NOW YOU'RE GETTING WATER FROM BOTH SIDES.

SO THAT'S WHAT THIS PART OF THE PROJECT IS REALLY MEANT TO PREVENT.

ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FOR GLENN? IS THE REASON YOU'RE STARTING...

SO FAR ON THE SOUTH END IN PHASE ONE, BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T HAD THOSE PUBLIC-PRIVATE CONVERSATIONS, YOU HAVEN'T FIGURED THOSE OUT, AND THAT'S A DOWN THE ROAD.

YEAH, AND WE'RE WORKING ON THAT.

WE HAVE THE HARBOR MASTER PLAN WORKING ON THIS YEAR THAT WILL DO THAT WORK.

BUT, YES, ALL OF WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TONIGHT, BOTH CASES, ARE PUBLICLY OWNED LAND.

SO WE STARTED WITH OUR OWN FIRST, AND I THINK THAT IS IMPORTANT TO THE PRIVATE.

PROPERTY OWNERS TO UNDERSTAND THAT, ONE, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A PLAN.

TWO, WE CAN IMPLEMENT IT.

THE OTHER THING THAT I'D JUST LIKE TO COMMENT ON IS THAT IN THE PAST, THERE WAS A VERSION OF THIS PLAN THAT HAD BREAKS IN THIS WALL AND IT DID NOT GO ALL THE WAY TO THE PORT.

SO THERE WAS A LOT OF ANGST.

IN THE COMMUNITY THAT THIS IS GOING TO END UP DOING NO GOOD BECAUSE THE WATER IS GOING TO GO AROUND THE WALL OR THE WATER IS GOING TO COME THROUGH THE WALL.

BUT THE PLAN THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT NOW WOULD NOT HAVE THOSE BREAKS? SO YES AND NO.

SO THE PERMITTING FOLKS HAVE

[02:10:01]

THE SAME CONCERN.

THEY DON'T WANT TO AND OUR GRANT AGENCY DOESN'T WANT US TO START AND NOT FINISH.

THERE ARE, BECAUSE OF THE WALKABILITY OF IT, AND YOU CAN GO INTO THE SECTION THAT'S THERE NOW AND WALK DOWN THERE, AND YOU WILL SEE BREAKS IN IT.

THEY HAVE PIECES THAT WILL BE INSTALLED PRIOR TO STORMS. AND IF WE KNEW WE WERE GOING TO HAVE HIGH TIDE, WE CAN ADD THOSE IN THERE, AND THEY WILL PREVENT IT.

AND THEY WILL PREVENT UP TO PRETTY MUCH THE AMOUNT THAT THE CONCRETE WOULD TAKE, RIGHT? THEY ARE A LITTLE BIT WEAKER, BUT NOT THAT MUCH.

SO THOSE THINGS WILL BE IN PLACE, BUT WE'RE WORKING HARD TO KEEP THEM SMALL.

AND AS FEW AS POSSIBLE.

ANYTHING ELSE? MORE OF A GENERAL CONTRACTS QUESTION, NOT SPECIFIC TO THIS PROJECT.

SO I'VE DONE YEARS AND YEARS OF PUBLIC WORKS PROJECTS IN DIFFERENT STATES, SO MY EXPERIENCE COMES FROM A DIFFERENT STATE.

WHAT WE FOUND WORKED REALLY WELL IS TO BUILD ALLOWANCES INTO THE CONTRACTS, AND SO THE CONTRACTORS HAD ALLOWANCES.

SO THAT IT DIDN'T DELAY THE TIMELINE OR DIDN'T DELAY, LIKE, GETTING ADDITIONAL BUDGET APPROVAL.

SO I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S PERMITTED IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA, BUT THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I WOULD DEFINITELY SUGGEST.

IT IS TO A CERTAIN EXTENT.

YEAH, PROBABLY PERCENTAGES OR SOMETHING.

YEAH, AND FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, THAT'S MOST OF MY WORK'S BEEN IN OTHER STATES AS WELL.

BUT TO ME, THERE'S ALWAYS CONTINGENCIES.

SO WE CAN DO A CONTINGENCY.

WE WILL ALWAYS HAVE THOSE.

PROJECT, MOST PROJECTS I WOULD SAY WE WOULD DO A CONTINGENCY BETWEEN 10 AND 15 PERCENT.

AND WE HAVE A PERCENTAGE OF THAT THAT THE CITY MANAGER CAN APPROVE.

SO WE'VE WORKED ON THAT AND CLEANED THAT UP.

THIS ONE WILL LIKELY BE ON THE LOWER END.

THE NEXT ONE WILL BE HIGHER THAN THAT.

AND WE CAN ALSO DO BID CONTINGENCIES IF WE THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE A HIGH BID OR SOMETHING THAT GOES CRAZY.

ONE LAST ON THE DESIGN OF IT.

SINCE THIS IS BASICALLY WE'RE GOING TO BE UP A ABOVE GRADE MAYBE THREE, FOUR FEET IN THIS LEVEL.

FDOT, ARE THERE SAFETY THINGS? LIKE WHAT HAPPENS IF A DUMP TRUCK BACKS INTO IT AND TAKES OUT A CHUNK OF IT? IT WON'T LIKELY DO THAT BECAUSE OF THE WAY IT'S BUILT, BUT IT DOES MEET ALL THOSE REQUIREMENTS AND ALL OF OUR REQUIREMENTS.

THAT'S ALWAYS POSSIBLE.

IT'S ALWAYS A PIECE OF IT.

SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE'LL BE TALKING ABOUT, NOT ONLY IN THIS PROJECT, BUT CERTAINLY WHEN WE REDO DOWNTOWN, IS WHAT TRUCKS AND VEHICLES WE ALLOW ON THOSE STREETS.

WE'VE GOT THOSE DUMPSTERS DOWN THERE THAT NEED TO BE EMPTIED.

AND THEN DO YOU HAVE TO PUT REFLECTIVE TAPE ALONG THIS WHOLE THING? WE MAY.

WE MAY HAVE TO DO SOME OF THAT.

WE'LL HAVE TO SEE.

RIGHT NOW WE HAVE ONE MAIN USER DOWN THERE.

SO PAT, ONCE WE GET PAST THE...

SO WE'LL BE WORKING WITH THAT LANDOWNER TO MAKE SURE THAT THINGS WORK OUT RIGHT.

ANYTHING ELSE? WE HAVE ANOTHER WHOLE PROJECT TO TALK ABOUT.

I'M GOING TO ASK MR. COOK, DOES THAT LOOK OKAY TO YOU? COME UP HERE, PLEASE.

DAVID COOK, 751 WREN DRIVE FROM THE DENA BEACH.

I THINK IT'LL WORK.

I MEAN, I'D LIKE TO SEE IT FURTHER OUT ON WHERE MY PROPERTY ENDS, OUT BY THE RIVER.

IT'LL COME DOWN TO THE CITY, BUT THAT'S A PIE IN THE SKY.

YOU'RE NEVER GOING TO GET IT.

SO, THIS IS THE NEXT BEST THING I THINK WILL WORK.

BETTER THAN THE PLANS YOU SAW BEFORE? YEAH, I THINK SO.

IT'D BE NICE.

IT WOULD BE GREATER FOR THE CITY BECAUSE THEY COULD...

TAKE ALL THE SPOIL AND PUT IT BEHIND THE WALL.

THAT WOULD BE THE BEST PART.

KEEP THE MARINE ANDREAS DOWN.

WELL, THAT'S FOR MR. FLYNN TO THINK ABOUT.

A COUPLE OF FEW THINGS.

HE'S GOING TO BE MOVING FORWARD, BUT I THINK IT'LL WORK.

THANK YOU, SIR.

OKAY, DO WE HAVE A FURTHER DISCUSSION OR DO I HEAR A MOTION? I MOVE TO APPROVE CASE NUMBER HDC-2026-0004.

WITHOUT CONDITIONS, I MOVE THAT THE HGC MAKE THE FOLLOWING FINDINGS, THE FACTS, AND CONCLUSIONS OF LAW PART OF THE RECORD.

THAT CASE 2026-0004, AS PRESENTED, IS SUBSTANTIALLY COMPLIANT WITH THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN, THE LDC, SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR STANDARDS, AND THE HISTORIC DOWNTOWN DESIGN GUIDELINES, AND COMMUNITY REDEVELOPMENT AREA DESIGN GUIDELINES, TO WARRANT FINAL APPROVAL AT THIS TIME.

SECOND.

I HAVE A MOTION AND A SECOND.

[02:15:01]

COULD YOU CALL THE ROLL, PLEASE? MEMBER SALA? YES.

MEMBER KOSAK? YES.

MEMBER BURNS? YES.

[5.5 HDC 2026-0008 - CITY OF FERNANDINA BEACH, 1 FRONT STREET Certificate of Approval (COA) for the demolition of a commercial structure (Brett's Cafe), the demolition and reconstruction of the pier, and construction of seawall segments. (Quasi-Judicial)]

MEMBER SLAKOWSKI? YES.

VICE CHAIR PEZZETTA? YES.

AND CHAIR POLKOFF? YES.